IAF Seeks Urgent Resolution for MRFA Program Amidst Industry Concerns

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is making a renewed push for the swift resolution of the long-delayed Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MMRCA) program, also known as MRFA, citing critical operational needs and concerns about the development of India's defence industry. The program, aimed at acquiring 114 fighter jets, has been in the works since 2018.

IAF officials have expressed frustration over delays in the procurement process, emphasizing the urgency of addressing the fighter jet shortfall. Anonymous sources within the IAF have voiced concerns about the impact of these delays on operational capabilities and the development of a robust private sector ecosystem in the defence industry.

The MRFA program is not just about acquiring new fighter jets; it's also seen as a crucial step towards building a self-reliant defence industry in India. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) envisions a private sector-led production line that can reduce India's reliance on state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for future projects, particularly the AMCA 5th generation fighter jet.

However, the lack of experience among private companies in large-scale defence projects has created a catch-22 situation. Private companies are looking to the MRFA program as a platform to gain experience and expertise, but their hesitancy to take the lead in the AMCA program is hindering its progress.

To address these concerns, the IAF and MoD are considering several options, including streamlining the procurement process, offering incentives to private sector partners, and providing a clear roadmap outlining the path from MRFA to AMCA.

The success of the MRFA program and the future of the AMCA program are intricately linked. By taking decisive action and addressing the concerns of the private sector, the IAF and MoD can ensure the timely modernization of India's fighter jet fleet and pave the way for a more self-reliant defence industry.

 

[Pad UwU]

Logically right.,

As far as F15EX or for that matter any USA front line platforms are concerned., they come with whole lot of strings attached and we need USA permission to use it which btw isn't suggest able for Non Aligned nation like India.

My suggestion would be to buy

1. Couple squadron of Rafale
2. Fund Indian Platforms
3. Couple squadron of Russian so called 5th gen.
4. Upgrade SU 30 MKI

All has to be done parallel so that by 2030 we can start inducting all the above.

It would only be acceptable if we only buy rafale for our navy.... Getting more rafale for air force is too much waste when we can just update the su30 mkii into super version with our latest arsenal init...
Yes getting access the so called 5gen of Russian too is also good idea if we get r77m and r37m with our combo missiles.... Targeting enemies beyond visual range as a safety distance without them knowing

 

[Avada kedavra]

Absolutely false. IAF had given its preference way back in 2011 itself. It was HAL which failed to finalize the deal.

It's really funny that how HAL has been the kind of employee who should've been fired within a 2 weeks yet everyone is still clinging on to it since there is no other alternative.

People here in the comment section are literally begging HAL to complete the projects and deliveries on time!🤣 despite knowing how notorious HAL has been in disappointing all expectations.

 

[Akshat]

Well Rafale at the moment is overprice today's inflation nothing different when eurofighter calculatits right pricing....
F15ex can access European weapons that can be use against those Chinese 5gen... Sad thing is the US still lazy to update them to use other available weapons for future proofing IMHO

There is no certainty that EU will allow Meteor on F15. So far no plane outside Europe has been allowed to carry it.

As for price, Rafale beat EF hands down. Rafale is cheaper than EF and F18 and that is the official stance of GoI.

 

[Akshat]

It's really funny that how HAL has been the kind of employee who should've been fired within a 2 weeks yet everyone is still clinging on to it since there is no other alternative.

People here in the comment section are literally begging HAL to complete the projects and deliveries on time!🤣 despite knowing how notorious HAL has been in disappointing all expectations.

That’s the reason GoI is now creating that alternative. That’s why Tata got C295 deal and that’s why MRFA is progressing now.

 

[Sandeep]

Government won’t? Sure? Then why is governments official stand states that they are more than willing to spend whatever it costs?

They are using it as a back up incase Tejas 2 fails completely. As soon as we have our first flight then the deal will be cancelled completely. The same thing happened with Tejas MK1 and we cancelled the single engine fighter competition.

 

[NSR]

Boss, as I stated in my reply to your comment on the GCAP article, I am not exactly sure about cancelling MRFA entirely. The reason for that is as follows:

We presently have 30 squadrons (13 Su-30MKI squadrons, 5 Jaguar squadrons, 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons, 3 MiG-29 squadrons, 2 Tejas squadrons, 2 Rafale squadrons, and 2 MiG-21 squadrons). Of these, the 2 MiG-21 squadrons are phasing out by next year. By 2040-41, this number is set to drop to 17 squadrons (from the present number) plus new Tejas / AMCA squadrons.

The best case scenario for the Tejas Mk 1A is that if we assume all 180 are delivered by 2040 (unlikely, but let's assume), that adds 8 squadrons, taking the number up to 25 squadrons. Factor in 80 Tejas Mk 2 deliveries (out of a larger hypothetical order), and that adds another 4 squadrons, giving you 29 squadrons. Let's also assume (very optimistically) that you can get a single AMCA squadron, and that leaves us at 30 squadrons, which is where we are today. Do note that even 80 Tejas Mk 2 deliveries by then are fairly optimistic.

Hence, we still have a 12 squadron shortfall by 2040. Delays in local aircraft development will push squadron numbers down still. MRFA is therefore needed to bridge numbers and avoid this critical shortfall.

What we can do, however, is to possibly scale down MRFA to, say, 100 aircraft (5 squadrons instead of 6). That would save us around 4 billion USD which can be sent into GCAP.

I used to write that India should order at least 36 or 54 more Rafales after first 36 but I am really not sure anymore about it.
I feel that France/Dassault is trying to straight jacket us into same Mirage-2000 kind of contract.
No local productions, no TOT, expensive upgrades, expensive French armaments, etc

India should have ordered Tejas Mk2 development 3 years ago right after Tejas IA getting FOC.
HAL delivery performance is very poor, except for export stories they feed us.

Somethings just does not make sense at all.

 

[Frank]

With HAL at the helm the situation will be more critical than today.

50% order to hal

50% order to some private company

 

[Akshat]

They are using it as a back up incase Tejas 2 fails completely. As soon as we have our first flight then the deal will be cancelled completely. The same thing happened with Tejas MK1 and we cancelled the single engine fighter competition.

Again the same lies. Show me when was the RFI issued for SEF. Answer is never.

As for mk2, it ain’t coming before 2040. Roll out delayed again. No first flight this decade.

 

[Anant]

I used to write that India should order at least 36 or 54 more Rafales after first 36 but I am really not sure anymore about it.
I feel that France/Dassault is trying to straight jacket us into same Mirage-2000 kind of contract.
No local productions, no TOT, expensive upgrades, expensive French armaments, etc

India should have ordered Tejas Mk2 development 3 years ago right after Tejas IA getting FOC.
HAL delivery performance is very poor, except for export stories they feed us.

Somethings just does not make sense at all.

Boss, if we scale down MRFA to 100 aircraft, that is still a substantial-enough number for local production, and we can shoe-horn a bunch of ToT. Moreover, the large order would also give us enough leverage to integrate indigenous weapons.

A smaller order gets us no ToT, no local production, limited indigenous weapon integration, and doesn't help the squadron number problem.

 

[Pad UwU]

There is no certainty that EU will allow Meteor on F15. So far no plane outside Europe has been allowed to carry it.

As for price, Rafale beat EF hands down. Rafale is cheaper than EF and F18 and that is the official stance of GoI.

Most EU members are in NATO alliance.... MBDA is compose of corporation from UK, France and German division... They can easily sell it to US for integration in f15ex if there's a demand problem is Boeing and Raytheon would be piss of because MBDA is a competitor for their missile business while Boeing is the platform owner of f15ex....

Nah eurofighter is only a bit pricey but hey... Rafale is 250m+ if you add inflation and some dogee add ONS from Dassault pricing

 

[Pink Panther]

Dassault may buy Remaining stake in DRAL how it will benefit AMCA Eco-system If Dassault win the MRFA Race. Who ever wins the MRFA Race should Joint Manufacture Fighter jet with complete Eco-system . Not Just Like 80% Offered in GE-414 Engine.

Yes that's true, if Dassault buys DRAL it will make Rafale 100%, it won't work with any Indian entity, that is the point of buying 100% stake, this contradicts to the conditions laid out in MRFA regarding working with a local partner and transfering knowledge.

 

[Pink Panther]

That’s the reason GoI is now creating that alternative. That’s why Tata got C295 deal and that’s why MRFA is progressing now.

And Tata will get MRFA deal also it seems,

 

[Pink Panther]

$250 millions * 114 = $28.5 billions
$300 millions *114 = $34.2 billions

That much money on 4+ generation Rafale fighter is really not worth spending for a country like India.
BTW, France/Dassault/Safran, etc are not keen on delivering any TOT at all, much less handholding an Indian company to manufacture them in India.
It will end up like Mirage-2000 and 36 Rafale programs of no end in sight negotiations and no TOT.

Better use that money to fast track all of Indian fighter programs.
Perhaps use some of that money to join UK, Japan and Italy 6th generation TEMPEST fighter program.

Sorry to disappoint fellow readers and posters.

$30-$35Mln for only 114 aircrafts is ridiculous, if MOD uses it's brain they could get 250 4th gen aircrafts for that money.

 

[Pink Panther]

Well Rafale at the moment is overprice today's inflation nothing different when eurofighter calculatits right pricing....
F15ex can access European weapons that can be use against those Chinese 5gen... Sad thing is the US still lazy to update them to use other available weapons for future proofing IMHO

F15, Gripen-E and Typhoon can access Indian, European, and American weapons.

 

[Pink Panther]

There is no certainty that EU will allow Meteor on F15. So far no plane outside Europe has been allowed to carry it.

As for price, Rafale beat EF hands down. Rafale is cheaper than EF and F18 and that is the official stance of GoI.

US has already integrated Meteor in F35.

 

[Pink Panther]

Logically right.,

As far as F15EX or for that matter any USA front line platforms are concerned., they come with whole lot of strings attached and we need USA permission to use it which btw isn't suggest able for Non Aligned nation like India.

My suggestion would be to buy

1. Couple squadron of Rafale
2. Fund Indian Platforms
3. Couple squadron of Russian so called 5th gen.
4. Upgrade SU 30 MKI

All has to be done parallel so that by 2030 we can start inducting all the above.

there is no need of couple of squadrons of Rafale also if the rumor of Navy buying 22 Rafale-M's and 4 used Rafale-C's is true, we will have 62 Rafale's which is plenty for Pakistan, we need to buy a jet in numerical quantity to face China now, only Tejas MK2 can do this.

 

[Pink Panther]

What about the logistical bottleneck of having different aircrafts? And Indian platforms the biggest hurdle is HAL.

32 jet's won't cause any logistical nightmare, we had only 50 Mirages, only 60 MIG-29's , 270 SU_30's, 50 Jaguars, did they cause any logistical problems, all can coexist, Dassault is not going to maintain US jets and US OEM's local partner for an example TATA is not going to maintain Rafale's either, there can be separate maintenance contracts with different local companies for jets from different countries, this way it is much better and the maintenance quality will be good.

 

[Rajesh]

Dassault may buy Remaining stake in DRAL how it will benefit AMCA Eco-system If Dassault win the MRFA Race. Who ever wins the MRFA Race should Joint Manufacture Fighter jet with complete Eco-system . Not Just Like 80% Offered in GE-414 Engine.

Yes. All we will get is an expensive jet with no tot or any manufacturing experience but some fancy rafale watches for those who didn't get in the first lot.

 

[Avada kedavra]

That’s the reason GoI is now creating that alternative. That’s why Tata got C295 deal and that’s why MRFA is progressing now.

mrfa is progressing bcoz of tata? Not buying it.
Tata started working on helicopters from 2008 itself I believe. So why haven't they become an alternative yet?

 

[Rajesh]

$250 millions * 114 = $28.5 billions
$300 millions *114 = $34.2 billions

That much money on 4+ generation Rafale fighter is really not worth spending for a country like India.
BTW, France/Dassault/Safran, etc are not keen on delivering any TOT at all, much less handholding an Indian company to manufacture them in India.
It will end up like Mirage-2000 and 36 Rafale programs of no end in sight negotiations and no TOT.

Better use that money to fast track all of Indian fighter programs.
Perhaps use some of that money to join UK, Japan and Italy 6th generation TEMPEST fighter program.

Sorry to disappoint fellow readers and posters.

It is obvious that they will loot . They looted us for a low tech upgrades to mirage 2000 with hal officials way back and it no secret that they will milk the last straw out of us because it would be the last such instances even if they have to attach some rafale watches with the rafale jets .

 

[Sandeep]

Again the same lies. Show me when was the RFI issued for SEF. Answer is never.

As for mk2, it ain’t coming before 2040. Roll out delayed again. No first flight this decade.

Explain why haven’t they made a deal yet then? It’s been ages. On the other hand the naval rafale deal has been reached much quickly and progress is taking place.

First flight for Tejas MK2 will take place in a couple of years so then Rafale is no longer needed. With the single engine fighter competition the moment Tejas MK1A program met the technology and capabilities that they wanted the single engine fighter was cancelled.

 

[NSR]

Boss, if we scale down MRFA to 100 aircraft, that is still a substantial-enough number for local production, and we can shoe-horn a bunch of ToT. Moreover, the large order would also give us enough leverage to integrate indigenous weapons.

A smaller order gets us no ToT, no local production, limited indigenous weapon integration, and doesn't help the squadron number problem.

Anant, France/Dassault/Safran are crafty and shifty and very shady in what they say and what they do.
See they already got 36 Rafales and delivered, and now 26 Rafale-Ms, for a total of 62.
Original MMRCA contract is for 126
Okay they can take another 64 Rafale contract and do what you say they would have to do.
But I doubt their true intentions - they just want to take over DRAL and assemble them and then get out of the country.

 

[NSR]

It is obvious that they will loot . They looted us for a low tech upgrades to mirage 2000 with hal officials way back and it no secret that they will milk the last straw out of us because it would be the last such instances even if they have to attach some rafale watches with the rafale jets .

Absolutely true conclusions and they will do it again too.

 

[Pink Panther]

mrfa is progressing bcoz of tata? Not buying it.
Tata started working on helicopters from 2008 itself I believe. So why haven't they become an alternative yet?

yes if they make F21 or F15 or F/A-18.

 

[Pink Panther]

We should make F-36 (-5th gen) seeking tech from Lockheed Martin if they deny then we should go for Rafale F-5 !

we could make NGAD's also if US allows and agrees.

 

[Pad UwU]

F15, Gripen-E and Typhoon can access Indian, European, and American weapons.

True👍
Because of their sp called NATO alliance of like minded countries 😹😹😹...

Being a member has it perks... Whether they drag you in trouble or you drag them instead into oblivion

 

[Anant]

Anant, France/Dassault/Safran are crafty and shifty and very shady in what they say and what they do.
See they already got 36 Rafales and delivered, and now 26 Rafale-Ms, for a total of 62.
Original MMRCA contract is for 126
Okay they can take another 64 Rafale contract and do what you say they would have to do.
But I doubt their true intentions - they just want to take over DRAL and assemble them and then get out of the country.

The original MMRCA contract did not include aircraft for the Navy, so if you are looking at it from that perspective, we'd need 90 aircraft now. That said, Dassault has maintained for a very long time that local production will only be on the table for an order of atleast 100 aircraft. It was a similar thing that led to us missing out on local production of the Mirage 2000 thanks to Khangress.

I am not saying Dassault is an angel. They aren't, and there is no denying we got robbed on the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract. However, unfortunately, as best I see it, we don't have any other options left to us unless we are willing to see the IAF shrink to a historical low in numbers.

Oh, and it doesn't have to be the Rafale, even though the Rafale has a head-start. Any aircraft will do. However, MRFA is needed.

 

[Anant]

$30-$35Mln for only 114 aircrafts is ridiculous, if MOD uses it's brain they could get 250 4th gen aircrafts for that money.

They couldn't, even if they tried. Fifth generation fighters are pretty expensive. For instance, look at Czechia's F-35 purchase.

They purchased 24 F-35s for around 5.6 billion USD. That comes to just over 233 million USD per aircraft. This figure doesn't include weapon systems or training. Add in weapon systems, and you are looking at a price tag of 275-ish million USD.

 

[Pink Panther]

They couldn't, even if they tried. Fifth generation fighters are pretty expensive. For instance, look at Czechia's F-35 purchase.

They purchased 24 F-35s for around 5.6 billion USD. That comes to just over 233 million USD per aircraft. This figure doesn't include weapon systems or training. Add in weapon systems, and you are looking at a price tag of 275-ish million USD.

We are buying 26 4th gen jets for $6Bln when they are buying 24 world’s only mass produced 5th gen fighter jet.

 

[shauryaman65]

They couldn't, even if they tried. Fifth generation fighters are pretty expensive. For instance, look at Czechia's F-35 purchase.

They purchased 24 F-35s for around 5.6 billion USD. That comes to just over 233 million USD per aircraft. This figure doesn't include weapon systems or training. Add in weapon systems, and you are looking at a price tag of 275-ish million USD.

Wrong

When the US State Department approved the sale to the Czech Republic in June 2023, the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) covered the aircraft, air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons, spares, training, and support for an estimated USD5. 62 billion, while the actual cost quoted by the Czech MoD is USD 4.57 billion.