Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[AK S]

Great News. weight reduction & Thrust enhancement will make Tejas MK1A poweing Indigenous Jet Engine

LCA super expensive! Boy you must be from other planet.

 

[AK S]

Agree with that. But it’s not gonna happen with GTRE in charge

We need to develop core tech on our own. When we get close, there will interesting offers from the established players.

Let’s see. So far it’s been only GTRE and to some extent HAL and MIDHANI. Private players won’t invest or even participate in JVs where development and engineering is concerned… this is pure R&D. I don’t see it happening in another decade. They will invest once tech is matured and orders are steady and margins are healthy.

Safran wanted close to billion dollar (offsets included) just to integrate M88 core - very bad deal for us in terms of expensive royalties continued French dependence. Ask patrons to be more accommodating.

 

[Sandeep]

The Kaveri engine prototype has been developed for the stealth UCAV Ghatak drone so progress is being made on that which won’t require any foreign help. That’s a significant progress and difference as we will be able to maintain, upkeep, service, repair or overhaul it using indigenously developed parts and components.

To develop a Kaveri engine for a fighter jet it would mean they will have to increase the thrust level by a lot more than it currently can. So we have to keep working, researching and engineer an indigenous engine as there’s no alternative if we want to become self reliant.

Another key progress is that we are developing the Kaveri marine engine which is showing significant progress and results. This will allow us to power our own indigenous small to medium weight ship engines so we don’t have to rely on foreign imports.

 

[SK]

This is a good news. Investment in Indigenous technologies is a must to achieve strategic Independence.

 

[Akshat]

LCA super expensive! Boy you must be from other planet.

It is indeed. It is comparable fighters of far heavier classes. The cost paid for Mk1a is 78 million usd. For the home country!!!

For comparison, Su30 mki (2019) being manufactured by HAL for 68 million USD. F18 costs about 65 million barebones. Even your favorite Rafale was reported to cost about 69 million USD to the French Senate (2014). And the prices since 2014 have decreased for Rafale packages, if anything. So yeah, LCA is one of the costliest planes around,

 

[Akshat]

Have you checked per hour flying cost of Tejas vs F-16 vs Gripen?
There is life cycle cost to air craft. Tejas are increasingly becoming easy to maintain. Mk1A is better maintainable compared to mk 1. And Mk-2 will improve upon from mk1A.

Also, USD spent are within and with India except engine. Which is being worked !! For which you are commenting.

Well if it’s a fact then it’s a fact. Tejas is about 55% indigenous. Rest is going out of the country. In MRFA we are asking for 50% local content. Even for Rafale we had 50% offsets. So the amount of money kept in India and sent outside will be comparable.

And as for cost, Tejas is indeed one of the costliest planes around. And I am comparing with planes of far superior quality and capabilities.

As for per hour costs, are there any reliable sources which confirm this?

Being a DRDO apologist doesn’t help anyone. We should call a spade a spade and blame them for holding back our progress.

 

[Kailash]

1180 kg has been the weight of Kaveri for god know how many years. What is new in this article is only the date. If Kaveri comes to around 1000, then it will mean serious business.

 

[Vinit Kothari]

LCA super expensive! Boy you must be from other planet.

Have you checked per hour flying cost of Tejas vs F-16 vs Gripen?
There is life cycle cost to air craft. Tejas are increasingly becoming easy to maintain. Mk1A is better maintainable compared to mk 1. And Mk-2 will improve upon from mk1A.

Also, USD spent are within and with India except engine. Which is being worked !! For which you are commenting.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

Good Work. Snechma M88 with ~50 KN of Dry thrust weighs around 900KG. Still some ground to cover. We have to intensify our R&D and create Jet engine ecosystem. It won't develope only becuase of JVs. Country like China are spending 3-5 billion a year for atmanirbharta in Jet Engine tech for civilian and military use. With a meagre investment we wont be Atmanirbhar.

 

[Pink Panther]

We need to develop core tech on our own. When we get close, there will interesting offers from the established players.

Let’s see. So far it’s been only GTRE and to some extent HAL and MIDHANI. Private players won’t invest or even participate in JVs where development and engineering is concerned… this is pure R&D. I don’t see it happening in another decade. They will invest once tech is matured and orders are steady and margins are healthy.

Safran wanted close to billion dollar (offsets included) just to integrate M88 core - very bad deal for us in terms of expensive royalties continued French dependence. Ask patrons to be more accommodating.

Not close to 1Bln, they wanted $1.5Bln for using their core and then royalties on top of that, making a robust indegenous core is the only solution.

 

[Sudha]

U have no other option than to make your own engine . Steal , borrow or do whatever but make it work. U can't trust on French , British or anyone for that matter .

Best is to steal, for foreign OEM will not give the tech & GTRE unable to do it. Begging we tried to no avail. In the advancement of "kn"s private sector has played a pivotal role to which DRDO nor GTRE will ever mention. After giving the private sector to manufacture the engine all these advancements are being trumpeted now.

 

[Sudha]

Not close to 1Bln, they wanted $1.5Bln for using their core and then royalties on top of that, making a robust indegenous core is the only solution.

Instead of blaming private sector you have convince the GOI to fund R&D the private sector (maybe as a loan) even DPSUs & government labs are getting funding from government for R&D. Why not give a level playing field?

 

[UKumar]

Have you checked per hour flying cost of Tejas vs F-16 vs Gripen?
There is life cycle cost to air craft. Tejas are increasingly becoming easy to maintain. Mk1A is better maintainable compared to mk 1. And Mk-2 will improve upon from mk1A.

Also, USD spent are within and with India except engine. Which is being worked !! For which you are commenting.

Also initially every aircraft while developing it will be costlier, later when it we increase the total no`s of aircraft purchase the cost will start to come down also still we are using some of the main part imported (like engine, ejection seat etc) once we start manufacturing it the cost will be less and we will have our own Eco systems (both Pvt and govt players) there will be further reduction in prices

 

[UKumar]

It is indeed. It is comparable fighters of far heavier classes. The cost paid for Mk1a is 78 million usd. For the home country!!!

For comparison, Su30 mki (2019) being manufactured by HAL for 68 million USD. F18 costs about 65 million barebones. Even your favorite Rafale was reported to cost about 69 million USD to the French Senate (2014). And the prices since 2014 have decreased for Rafale packages, if anything. So yeah, LCA is one of the costliest planes around,

Pl; go to this link to know the cost of each aircraft, also pl; note Russia/ France has there own Eco system they do not have to buy critical products like engine/ ejection seat etc as they are manufactured by the same country also when the total no: of Aircraft increases the price too will come down

Top 10 most expensive fighter jets in 2024

Explore the top 10 list featuring high-tech aircraft with the highest price tags in today's aviation market. Discover the most expensive fighter jets of 2024.

www.aerotime.aero

 

[Utopian]

Well if it’s a fact then it’s a fact. Tejas is about 55% indigenous. Rest is going out of the country. In MRFA we are asking for 50% local content. Even for Rafale we had 50% offsets. So the amount of money kept in India and sent outside will be comparable.

And as for cost, Tejas is indeed one of the costliest planes around. And I am comparing with planes of far superior quality and capabilities.

As for per hour costs, are there any reliable sources which confirm this?

Being a DRDO apologist doesn’t help anyone. We should call a spade a spade and blame them for holding back our progress.

Hey firstly you need to understand, the costs are not only for machine, but for technologies as well. Most of the money HAL is charging is somehow rerouting in developing better technology.
today we have AESA radar
composite technology, know how of designing and building quality jets, many of these technologies have multiple applications, such as metallurgy of a ship is also useful for developing quality turbines.

So remember when you develop, you actually narrow the technology gap with west. It's complex, but we all need to understand and stay patient

 

[Jaydeep Gupta]

India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) is optimistic that the Dry Kaveri engine's successful demonstration on the Tejas Mk1 Trainer will pave the way for the development of the advanced Kaveri 2.0 engine. This development is not only crucial for securing much-needed funding but also for reducing India's dependency on foreign engines for its fighter jets.

The current Dry Kaveri engine, while impressive with its 46kN dry thrust and 73kN wet thrust, falls short of the power required for the Tejas Mk1A and MkII. However, its successful deployment on the Tejas Mk1 Trainer will demonstrate GTRE's capabilities and strengthen the case for additional investment.

GTRE, buoyed by a positive feasibility study conducted with French aerospace firm Safran, plans to seek nearly $1 billion in fresh investment for the Kaveri 2.0 engine. The upgraded engine is projected to deliver 55-58kN dry thrust and 90kN wet thrust, making it suitable to power both the Tejas Mk1A and MkII.

A key advantage of the Kaveri engines, including the future Kaveri 2.0, is their flat-rated design. This means they maintain consistent performance regardless of variations in ambient temperature and forward speed, a critical factor in India's hot and humid climate where traditional engines can lose significant power.

GTRE officials believe that the Kaveri 2.0's high reliability and efficiency in Indian conditions could make it a competitive alternative to foreign engines. However, the development timeline for the Kaveri 2.0 might not align with the immediate needs of the Tejas Mk1A and MkII programs.

While the Kaveri 2.0 may not be an immediate solution, its development signifies a significant step towards India's self-reliance in aerospace technology. If successful, it could reduce India's reliance on foreign engines and offer a cost-effective, high-performance solution for future fighter jet programs.

The road ahead is challenging, but the potential rewards are significant. The Kaveri 2.0, if realized, could be a game-changer for India's aerospace industry.

 

[sanket]

wow thats very Good development advantage over US Engine which loose 10% Thrust in Indian hot condition , which one person from forum was not accepting the fact . if developed it not nly for Tejas MK1A & MK2 But may b for TEDBF tooooo.

 

[bonito]

GTRE should ingrain this into their brains "Kaveri is only slated for UCAV", not Tejas. Start from scratch utilize the KM and all the ecosystem to redesign and recreate a new engine.

 

[Rishav Raj]

Because the engine itself is not working. Last time they sent it to Russia it ended up blowing the test bed.

I think ur bot, of not it's better to read test result

 

[Pramkumar]

IAF must work around the Kaveri eco system for the future

 

[NSR]

Where does the numbers 46/73 kN comes from?
Kaveri failed in high altitude test flights on Wet thrust?
Not believable at all.

If it is really true, then India can use to develop its twin engined fighters for IAF and IN because the total thrust would be around 146kN gross. Good enough power for a twin engined fighter.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

We will be requirring over a 1000 GE404 engines in all for all the tejas mk1 and mk 1a jets. And we have to import all of them.

The only reason that we didnt sign local production deal for GF404 is because DRDO and MoD were confident of developing kaveri to the point that it could replace GE404 in the tejas. Thus this kaveri 2.0 project is very crucial because we require a large number of them and if we dont get it ready, we have no other choice but to keep buying and importing GE404 for decades to come.

 

[Ranjeet Singh]

GTRE+Safran+ Godrej should make 90-95 KN engine for Tejas-1A and 98-110 KN engine for Tejas-AF-MK-II ! Our Tejas fighters must attain Mac 2.25 speed !

 

[Sentoki]

Reading between the lines of this article, it seems like GTRE has plans to redesign the hot section with single crystal blades instead of Directionally solidified blades used on the dry Kaveri. Possibly Blisks for weight reduction as well as improved cooling of the blades with higher TET by using laser drilling etc.

Sounds like simulations have been completed to validate what sort of thrust improvement can be anticipated. If these are consistent with other engine development cycles used around the world, then the govt should approve the $1bn funding now to fast track development parallely with testing of the Kaveri dry engine version.

It sounds like the Kaveri version 1 has gone as far as it can without additional funding.

 

[abhinav srivastava]

Also, include IISc, midhani, Bharat Forge and PTC for development of jet engines. PTC has recently developed tech for single crystal blades. ~50 KN Kaveri is stuck. We should not stop at that. Let team A develop 30 KN Engine and team B develop ~70 KN engine. Spending 500 million dollars a year on jet engine R&D is not much for India. Time to plan big and build a ecosystem for civilian and military engines. Educate auditors that this is a bleeding edge tech. They should not expect success in first go. We will get a meaningful JV transfer the tech only when we are very near in developing our own.

 

[Paul]

The current dry thrust variant of the Kaveri engine is 50KN, not 46KN.

One of the main challenges is the lack of a testbed for high-altitude testing. I'm not sure why the government isn't interested in setting one up.

 

[ramdas]

Gather talented experts from around the globe to conquer challenging crises. Every country does

 

[wallisk]

wow thats very Good development advantage over US Engine which loose 10% Thrust in Indian hot condition , which one person from forum was not accepting the fact . if developed it not nly for Tejas MK1A & MK2 But may b for TEDBF tooooo.

GE-F404 older engine max. thrusts is only 75KN now dude... Now, the newer IN20 version is giving out closer to 80KN max. wet thrusts it seems so..

 

[wallisk]

see video Kaveri 2.0

 

[Vijay Anand]

Gather talented experts from around the globe to conquer challenging crises. Every country does

But we want everything at a discount, and a lot of "EDUCATED" lawmakers don't see long term benefits.

Few of the western nations were clever to take the expert and bright minds during and after world war2, and they're miles ahead in defense. Acquiring good talent is also such a skill. Take example of Marut aircraft developed by a scientist who migrated from Germany (I believe), had we maintained and continued further with the ecosystem. We wouldn't be sitting on MRFA for decades.

The utter negligence and ignorance of lawmakers is what stopping Bharat from being a super power.