Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[Deepak Hegde]

Kaveri at the current stage has not been proved good for any purpose, neither for manned aircraft nor for UAV's. What is the basis for asking for any further funding without demonstrating any success of any kind ??

 

[Kailash]

Stop the double standards - when shiny brochures from GE comes, IAF never asks for "flat-rated" performance across the length and breadth of this great country. At the very least, after buying a F-404 or F-414, you should declare the right thrust values "under Indian conditions" of say Mumbai (sea level) vs Rajasthan (desert) vs Leh (high and dry) vs Kashmiri winters.

If the right thrust figures are out, Kaveri wont look so bad, GE might still lead, but not by as big a margin as their "brochure" claims. In a way accepting flat rating requirement screwed up the Kaveri engine effort. The second biggest issue being not enough funds, and a weak will to provide cash and approvals use to use Mig29s or Su-30mki or dedicated engine flying test beds. Change of requirements for Tejas to be able to carry wing tip A2A missiles and subsequent strengthening/weight gain was the final nail on the coffin for Kaveri.

One thing is certain, there is no way to go but forward. Kaveri has to be made in large numbers, used in aircrafts, ships, trains anywhere possible.

 

[Akshat]

IAF must work around the Kaveri eco system for the future

No thanks. We can’t sacrifice our soldiers just to satisfy DRDO’s ego.

 

[Akshat]

The current dry thrust variant of the Kaveri engine is 50KN, not 46KN.

One of the main challenges is the lack of a testbed for high-altitude testing. I'm not sure why the government isn't interested in setting one up.

Because the engine itself is not working. Last time they sent it to Russia it ended up blowing the test bed.

 

[Akshat]

Stop the double standards - when shiny brochures from GE comes, IAF never asks for "flat-rated" performance across the length and breadth of this great country. At the very least, after buying a F-404 or F-414, you should declare the right thrust values "under Indian conditions" of say Mumbai (sea level) vs Rajasthan (desert) vs Leh (high and dry) vs Kashmiri winters.

If the right thrust figures are out, Kaveri wont look so bad, GE might still lead, but not by as big a margin as their "brochure" claims. In a way accepting flat rating requirement screwed up the Kaveri engine effort. The second biggest issue being not enough funds, and a weak will to provide cash and approvals use to use Mig29s or Su-30mki or dedicated engine flying test beds. Change of requirements for Tejas to be able to carry wing tip A2A missiles and subsequent strengthening/weight gain was the final nail on the coffin for Kaveri.

One thing is certain, there is no way to go but forward. Kaveri has to be made in large numbers, used in aircrafts, ships, trains anywhere possible.

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.

 

[Anurag]

Because the engine itself is not working. Last time they sent it to Russia it ended up blowing the test bed.

When did it happen?? Can you please clarify it??

 

[Anurag]

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.

Blank check what a joke!!
We never have flying test bed even to certify engine we don't have anyone at the first place we don't have the ecosystem to build a fighter jet engine and amount you are talking about if they make a working prototype of a fighter jet engine in this amount then they have done a tremendous job!!

 

[Ramaka Sakala]

RD33MK used in Mig29UPG has better performance numbers than kaveri. RD33 was always available in the last 30 years. India went for Kaveri saying, life cycle of own engine will be better than Russian engines. But we do not hear about it. So what is really achieved apart from wasting 30 years of valuable time?

If engines were available now for TejasMk1A, at least it would have achieved the goal. But engines could be made available after 10 years...well, we will see then.

same mistake for Kaveri2.0. AL31FP used in SU30MKI has a better thrust and is a available. There is no new risk, as engines are used in large number of SU30MKI.

Till Kaveri fulfills the need of MK1A, Kaveri2.0 should not be invested into. Instead start a parallel technology demonstrator to build AMCA (non stealth) with available AL31FP. We could see a working fighter plane in 5 years.

 

[The Presence]

RD33MK used in Mig29UPG has better performance numbers than kaveri. RD33 was always available in the last 30 years. India went for Kaveri saying, life cycle of own engine will be better than Russian engines. But we do not hear about it. So what is really achieved apart from wasting 30 years of valuable time?

If engines were available now for TejasMk1A, at least it would have achieved the goal. But engines could be made available after 10 years...well, we will see then.

same mistake for Kaveri2.0. AL31FP used in SU30MKI has a better thrust and is a available. There is no new risk, as engines are used in large number of SU30MKI.

Till Kaveri fulfills the need of MK1A, Kaveri2.0 should not be invested into. Instead start a parallel technology demonstrator to build AMCA (non stealth) with available AL31FP. We could see a working fighter plane in 5 years.

Out of those 30 years, how many were utilised in active development ?

The Government delinked the Kaveri far ago in 2008 and nothing happened for nearly a decade.

This is peak example of Myopic Vision.

 

[Kailash]

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.

Blew the FTB?? Do you mean FTB/prototype exploded/destroyed?
Nothing in this reply is factual and the lesser I respond, the more civil this will be. You could believe wholeheartedly what you like 🙂

 

[Akshat]

Blank check what a joke!!
We never have flying test bed even to certify engine we don't have anyone at the first place we don't have the ecosystem to build a fighter jet engine and amount you are talking about if they make a working prototype of a fighter jet engine in this amount then they have done a tremendous job!!

Do we need an indigenous flying test or do we need a flying test bed to test the engine? GoI paid for all their trips to get it tested. Were they on a vacation there?

Whose job was it to make that ecosystem? They asked for 300 crores at first. We have that. They then asked for 1100 crores. Granted. They then asked for 2800 crores. Given. They couldn’t even spend it all and left 700 crores. This is the very definition of blank check.

Given the kind of support they got, they have done a shameful job and we Indians have to hang our heads in shame.

 

[Akshat]

When did it happen?? Can you please clarify it??

I have sent the link here multiple times. It was around 2011. The engine blew up mid air.

 

[Kailash]

Where does the numbers 46/73 kN comes from?
Kaveri failed in high altitude test flights on Wet thrust?
Not believable at all.

If it is really true, then India can use to develop its twin engined fighters for IAF and IN because the total thrust would be around 146kN gross. Good enough power for a twin engined fighter.

This is just BS ji. People in press confuse the K9 with the dry variant. K9 I believed demonstrated over 50KN/81KN dry around 2008. There were other issues like screech, blade throw, afterburner efficiency etc which all stand resolved today, though some aspect may need more testing. Weight is still a problem we do have, until the compressor stages are redesigned, pressure ratios improve, CMCs are introduced weight wont come down.

Our smart media houses rarely differentiate between K8, K9, kabini core or the dry variant with its own fan. Everything is branded as "Kaveri". What went to Russia is only the latest dry variant, not the one with afterburner. That raises another question, can afterburning engines be fully tested in a sub-sonic flight test bed.

 

[The Presence]

Firstly, there is no evidence to suggest GE engines are performing any worse. All tests on Tejas have been done with them and they have performed up to the mark.

Second, most of the tests of Kaveri were also done in Russia so their numbers are just as likely to be off.

And finally, Kaveri has issues far beyond the thrust. The engine simply doesn’t work. Remember it blew the FTB in Russia? Safran after inspecting it said that the entire hot core has to be changed.

Now, the funds. Blank check was given to GTRE for Kaveri. They in fact left sanctioned funds unutilized. 2800 crores were sanctioned and only 2100 crores used. So no amount of additional funds could have helped.

As for the change in requirements, you think the IAF will keep the requirements static after 3 decades? Planes undergo multiple changes in such timeframes. And many other planes designed at the same time or even earlier have seen massive upgrades far beyond even what IAF asked for.

So no. Making Kaveri is not gonna happen and thankfully. Till the time GTRE is involved it will never happen.

Typical bot peddling agenda doesn't care about the 2100 Cr having been utilised, but cries about the remaining 700 Cr being not utilised.

Nothing exploded in Russia, but many novel technologies were mastered for the first time in India.

Rs 2,101 crore spent on development of indigenous Kaveri engine: Here's why there's been a delay

The aero engine developed by DRDO has not achieved the required thrust to power Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Unlike you, I can give proof.

 

[Kailash]

GTRE+Safran+ Godrej should make 90-95 KN engine for Tejas-1A and 98-110 KN engine for Tejas-AF-MK-II ! Our Tejas fighters must attain Mac 2.25 speed !

If they could, they would. Profit extracts the best out of people LOL

 

[Kailash]

Reading between the lines of this article, it seems like GTRE has plans to redesign the hot section with single crystal blades instead of Directionally solidified blades used on the dry Kaveri. Possibly Blisks for weight reduction as well as improved cooling of the blades with higher TET by using laser drilling etc.

Sounds like simulations have been completed to validate what sort of thrust improvement can be anticipated. If these are consistent with other engine development cycles used around the world, then the govt should approve the $1bn funding now to fast track development parallely with testing of the Kaveri dry engine version.

It sounds like the Kaveri version 1 has gone as far as it can without additional funding.

Agreed 100%. The flip side is the minute we stop working on these, the imported maal will become much costilier. They will only sell to us, to keep us from making it ourselves.

And it is important we test what we have without waiting for perfection. To develop an ecosystem around it.

 

[Kailash]

Also, include IISc, midhani, Bharat Forge and PTC for development of jet engines. PTC has recently developed tech for single crystal blades. ~50 KN Kaveri is stuck. We should not stop at that. Let team A develop 30 KN Engine and team B develop ~70 KN engine. Spending 500 million dollars a year on jet engine R&D is not much for India. Time to plan big and build a ecosystem for civilian and military engines. Educate auditors that this is a bleeding edge tech. They should not expect success in first go. We will get a meaningful JV transfer the tech only when we are very near in developing our own.

Should be directly under the purview of PMO like DEA or ISRO, if I may add.

 

[Kailash]

The current dry thrust variant of the Kaveri engine is 50KN, not 46KN.

One of the main challenges is the lack of a testbed for high-altitude testing. I'm not sure why the government isn't interested in setting one up.

Dry thrust of dry variant is around 46-48KN, k9 dry thrust has always been 50.

 

[Akshat]

Typical bot peddling agenda doesn't care about the 2100 Cr having been utilised, but cries about the remaining 700 Cr being not utilised.

Nothing exploded in Russia, but many novel technologies were mastered for the first time in India.

Rs 2,101 crore spent on development of indigenous Kaveri engine: Here's why there's been a delay

The aero engine developed by DRDO has not achieved the required thrust to power Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Unlike you, I can give proof.

When someone is complaining about lack of funds, the 700 crores left unspent are more questionable than the funds spent.

And I have already given proof many a times on this site. Kaveri exploded in Russia.

The technologies mastered have led to anything? DRDO lies all the time. So unless and until they are actually used, no one even knows what they have done and what not. Remember the CAG report on their blatant lies to MoD itself?

Typical DRDO apologist

 

[Akshat]

I think ur bot, of not it's better to read test result

Do you have the test results, Mr. Not a bot?

 

[Akshat]

Blew the FTB?? Do you mean FTB/prototype exploded/destroyed?
Nothing in this reply is factual and the lesser I respond, the more civil this will be. You could believe wholeheartedly what you like 🙂

Kaveri was put on a FTB and Kaveri blew up mid air, leading to damage to the plane.

I believe facts. If you wanna believe the lies of DRDO, that is your issue. Everything I have said is backed by proof which has been often shared by me on this platform.

 

[Anurag]

I have sent the link here multiple times. It was around 2011. The engine blew up mid air.

So you are part of the history!! And what about new result that happens recently that it is successfully tested now??
according to you if a product fails in initial stage it is just bad product??? I don't think so everything is a part of failure and success!!!
You are talking about 2011 and what happened after that nothing matters to you why just spreading a lot of lies here!!

 

[Anurag]

When someone is complaining about lack of funds, the 700 crores left unspent are more questionable than the funds spent.

And I have already given proof many a times on this site. Kaveri exploded in Russia.

The technologies mastered have led to anything? DRDO lies all the time. So unless and until they are actually used, no one even knows what they have done and what not. Remember the CAG report on their blatant lies to MoD itself?

Typical DRDO apologist

It happened back in 2011 and the progress happened after that you can't see with blind folded when you are against a thing!! Just stop spreading lies!!

 

[Anurag]

Do we need an indigenous flying test or do we need a flying test bed to test the engine? GoI paid for all their trips to get it tested. Were they on a vacation there?

Whose job was it to make that ecosystem? They asked for 300 crores at first. We have that. They then asked for 1100 crores. Granted. They then asked for 2800 crores. Given. They couldn’t even spend it all and left 700 crores. This is the very definition of blank check.

Given the kind of support they got, they have done a shameful job and we Indians have to hang our heads in shame.

When their is no ecosystem at first that you are accepting then I think they are doing their best to have a working prototype!! And about 700 crore left because for further test they need a plane and they are demanding from long time either mig29 or Su-30 and at the last GoI agrees for the Tejas!!
that explain what really happens!! They don't want to work and gov itself don't want them to work that's really the thing is going on!!

 

[The Presence]

When someone is complaining about lack of funds, the 700 crores left unspent are more questionable than the funds spent.

And I have already given proof many a times on this site. Kaveri exploded in Russia.

The technologies mastered have led to anything? DRDO lies all the time. So unless and until they are actually used, no one even knows what they have done and what not. Remember the CAG report on their blatant lies to MoD itself?

Typical DRDO apologist

Yes you have given the proof so many times that no one remembers you giving the proof even once.

One lie doesn't make hundreds of successes untrue. One project can't be blatantly equated to a completely different one without proof. CAG reviews GTRE too, but never raised such allegations. GTRE developed a flat rated 70+ kN engine within those 2100 Cr from scratch. For 84 kN they would have required significantly more than the leftover 700 Cr, as the requirements themselves had changed.

The requirements at the time of project initiation was for an M-88 thrust class engine. Then they changed midway to an F-404IN20 class one. All this while they didn't even have basic infrastructure like High Altitude Test Facility, let alone a proper FTB. So no point on talking about delays as they had to run to Russia for testing every single modification.

 

[Sandeep]

Currently india has developed the Kaveri engine but it can’t handle the amount of thrust that’s required in a modern fighter jet which is why we used the GE F404 engines.

Now the dry thrust Kaveri engine will be used on the stealth UCAV Ghatak as it recently passed high altitude tests in Russia for the first time. Once all of the prototypes are manufactured then we can install the engine and give us the opportunity and capabilities to test its performance thoroughly.

We are also going to install the current Kaveri engine on one of the Tejas jet just to check the performance, gather crucial data and information which can be used for future upgrades or changes to improve the jet even further.

Currently we are also developing the Kaveri Marine Engine and electric propulsion which is showing good results and performance. This can be used to power small to medium naval ships which can now help to power our future ships.

 

[sky-high]

If 110kN was wet dreams , why wouldn't the billions be spent for that? Beats rme

 

[Akshat]

Yes you have given the proof so many times that no one remembers you giving the proof even once.

One lie doesn't make hundreds of successes untrue. One project can't be blatantly equated to a completely different one without proof. CAG reviews GTRE too, but never raised such allegations. GTRE developed a flat rated 70+ kN engine within those 2100 Cr from scratch. For 84 kN they would have required significantly more than the leftover 700 Cr, as the requirements themselves had changed.

The requirements at the time of project initiation was for an M-88 thrust class engine. Then they changed midway to an F-404IN20 class one. All this while they didn't even have basic infrastructure like High Altitude Test Facility, let alone a proper FTB. So no point on talking about delays as they had to run to Russia for testing every single modification.

The engine made by GTRE didn’t work with the after burner. This is on record.

And of course, you guys can’t remember the proof whenever it is against DRDO.

The money was for making a perfectly working 70 kN class engine. It is well established that that engine never came despite leftover funds.

And what’s wrong with going to Russia? GoI was paying

 

[Akshat]

When their is no ecosystem at first that you are accepting then I think they are doing their best to have a working prototype!! And about 700 crore left because for further test they need a plane and they are demanding from long time either mig29 or Su-30 and at the last GoI agrees for the Tejas!!
that explain what really happens!! They don't want to work and gov itself don't want them to work that's really the thing is going on!!

Please show me where has the GoI accepted for Tejas. One official comment. Let’s see.

 

[Anurag]

The engine made by GTRE didn’t work with the after burner. This is on record.

And of course, you guys can’t remember the proof whenever it is against DRDO.

The money was for making a perfectly working 70 kN class engine. It is well established that that engine never came despite leftover funds.

And what’s wrong with going to Russia? GoI was paying

So again a bunch of lies to spread here!! It successfully tested in last tests in Russia after that when Gov gave them permission to further improvement they are ready to build many more prototypes with the godrej and I think it's deadline is at the end of 2024 that they will start testing this engine in 2-3 years kaveri engine will be further tested and get certified for further improvement!!
well current issues faced by kaveri engine is it's weight is bit of high and its current thrusts is not applicable to Tejas program while it will be certified for the Ucav program lets wait untill fine retuning of this engine!!