Russia Offers F-22 Style Stealth Flat Nozzle Co-development for India's AMCA, Contingent on Selecting its 5th-Gen Izdeliye 177S Engine

Russia Offers F-22 Style Stealth Flat Nozzle Co-development for India's AMCA, Contingent on Selecting its 5th-Gen Izdeliye 177S Engine


In a potentially pivotal move for India's futuristic fighter jet program, Russia has proposed a joint effort to develop an advanced flat engine nozzle for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). This offer, however, is conditional upon India selecting Russia's new Izdeliye 177S engine to power the aircraft.

The proposal, stemming from talks initiated during the Aero India 2025 exposition and continuing through subsequent negotiations, highlights Russia's keen interest in deepening its longstanding defence relationship with India and equipping the AMCA with sophisticated stealth technology.

The Izdeliye 177S, described as a fifth-generation engine incorporating technology from the AL-51 (Izdeliye 30) developed for Russia's Su-57 fighter, presents India with a powerful option for its indigenous stealth aircraft.

India's AMCA project, a collaborative effort between the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), aims to produce a fifth-generation fighter featuring stealth characteristics, the ability to cruise faster than sound without afterburners (supercruise), and integrated advanced sensor systems for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Central to achieving these ambitious goals is the choice of engine, which needs to deliver significant thrust while maintaining stealth and fuel efficiency.

The initial version, AMCA Mark 1, is planned to use the American General Electric F414 engine (producing 98 kN thrust). However, for the more advanced AMCA Mark 2, the IAF requires a more powerful engine, ideally generating 110-130 kN of thrust, potentially co-developed or produced domestically, to enable superior performance and supercruise capabilities. Russia's Izdeliye 177S engine, reportedly capable of 142 kN thrust with afterburner and designed with stealth features, significantly surpasses these requirements.

The Izdeliye 177S engine is being developed by Russia's United Engine Corporation (UEC), part of the Rostec state corporation. It incorporates next-generation technologies, some adapted from the AL-51 (Izdeliye 30) engine currently being integrated into Russia's Su-57 "Felon" fighter. The AL-51 represents a major advancement in Russian engine technology, offering better fuel economy, increased thrust relative to its weight, and design features that reduce its visibility to radar and infrared sensors.

Building on this, the 177S reportedly offers a much longer operational lifespan of up to 6,000 hours—a threefold increase compared to the AL-31FP engines used in India's current Su-30 MKI fighters—and includes stealth-treated thrust vector control (TVC) nozzles.

Significantly, the new Russian proposal for the AMCA involves replacing the standard circular nozzle with a flat, two-dimensional (2D) design, similar to that used on the American F-22 Raptor, specifically to enhance the AMCA's stealth properties.

Flat or 2D engine nozzles are considered a key feature of modern stealth aircraft design. They help reduce an aircraft's detectability by scattering radar waves differently than round nozzles and by shaping and cooling the engine exhaust plume more effectively, thereby reducing its infrared signature.

Russia's offer to co-develop this specific nozzle technology with India aligns with 'Make in India' policy. Such a partnership could see Indian engineers from HAL and DRDO collaborating directly with UEC specialists to adapt the nozzle for the AMCA airframe, possibly incorporating Indian materials and control systems. This collaboration could also facilitate valuable technology transfer, significantly boosting India's indigenous capabilities in aerospace and engine technology.

Despite the potential advantages, the Russian proposal includes notable risks. The Izdeliye 177S engine has not yet been extensively tested in flight conditions, with reports suggesting Rostec is awaiting confirmed orders before proceeding with comprehensive trials. This approach, combined with the known development delays experienced by the related AL-51 engine and the impact of ongoing international sanctions on Russia's defence industry, raises concerns about timely delivery and performance validation.

Furthermore, integrating a significantly heavier and more powerful engine (142 kN) like the 177S, along with a new flat nozzle, into the AMCA airframe – originally designed around the lighter GE F414 – would likely require substantial modifications. These changes could lead to increased aircraft weight, development costs, and potential delays to the AMCA program, which currently aims for induction between 2032 and 2035.

Relying heavily on Russian technology also presents strategic considerations for India, which has been seeking to diversify its defence acquisitions.

So, India faces a complex decision. Adopting the flat nozzle technology could significantly improve the AMCA's stealth capabilities, providing a crucial advantage against advanced aircraft operated by regional neighbours, such as China's J-20 and developmental J-36 fighters.

Joint development could also provide India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) with invaluable experience, aiding its long-term objective of achieving self-sufficiency in aero-engine technology.

However, India must carefully evaluate this offer against other possibilities. France's Safran has previously proposed collaborating on a 110 kN engine based on the Rafale's M88 engine core, and the United States might potentially offer advanced engine technology as part of broader strategic alignments.

Russia's proposal offers the allure of readily available fifth-generation engine power and co-production opportunities, but its viability depends crucially on factors like technological maturity, reliable timelines, mutual trust, and seamless technical integration.
 
It's a shame that we are running from pillar to post for engine collaboration.
The problem is not just ineffective DPSUs. The real issue here is project management and lack of strategic foresight.

The Chinese have a rather efficient reverse engineering industry capable of copying the latest and greatest. Yet, they had to throw billions at their own largely unreliable and less powerful engines. The Chinese basically solicited ex-Soviet engineers, retired aeronautics engineers from the developed world and undertook shady deals to get the engines and their IP. And finally, after decades of unbridled support, they have a series of engines to power their locally developed jets.

Whereas here in India, riding on the baggage of an inefficient DPSU culture, our government in the 2000s decided to first delink Kaveri from LCA and then defunded the project altogether.

This is like, if we can’t afford an imported Mercedes E-Class, let’s not even buy a Maruti 800 for personal use.

Result, we went 10 years behind in the technology curve.

Now we are soliciting vendors for partnerships. Knowing fully well that not one will support our endeavour.

We played stupid games and we won stupid prizes.
 
Let us not get carried away by any offers from Russia. We should go with the original plan - manufacture GE 414 in India and then develop a new engine for AMCA II along with France, UK or USA.
 
Thanks for the info on the glass fibre, I was not aware. Selection of the engine depends upon the IAF and government finally. Do join in to share your knowledge in this blog. But the AMCA engine bay seems to be designed for the likes of Western engines as far as I know. The Russian engine is massively powerful and can only fit in Su-30 type platforms I think.
Yes... But if they want, they can make a derivative of the Klimov RD33 of the Fulcrums to accomodate to the Next Gen, with the same 110-115 kN Fuel Efficient engine (by also using the same GFP material on the same core, or using a brand new design like AL-51)...
 
We want the 177S engine or AL51 with a flat nozzle for Super Sukhoi upgradation and the Su57 stealth fighter. AMCA is going ahead with the GE F414 and subsequent 110kN joint development with GE.
To make use of a flat nozzle, the whole plane should look flat and stealthy. So, it cannot be added to the Super Sukhoi.
 
Russia is still developing, testing, fine tuning and perfecting their engine so obviously India isn’t going to buy it.
 
What should actually be done is a joint production of a new engine (maybe flat nozzled and based on AL-51 stealth standards), which can replace GE-414. So basically, ditch Safran and RR, as honestly, I don't have high hopes from them that they would give us the actual technology. Russia, I still feel, might give us if we give them proper money!
Nobody will give you the tech. Trust in nothing but the Kaveri. You are right, RR and Safran will use our money to come up with something they themselves don't have. GE is the only company already with the 5th gen tech.

AL51 is a generation ahead. 177s is a mishmash. It is like comparing F119/135 technology with F414.
 
Nobody will give you the tech. Trust in nothing but the Kaveri. You are right, RR and Safran will use our money to come up with something they themselves don't have. GE is the only company already with the 5th gen tech.

AL51 is a generation ahead. 177s is a mishmash. It is like comparing F119/135 technology with F414.
How does GE have five 5th gen tech when P&W engines power both F-22 & F-35? Now both are capable of producing it but only one has experience other than prototypes. Actually both are already working on their second 6th gen engines with the NGAP XA-102 & XA-103. They proved the tech with XA-100 & XA-101 which were supposed to power NGAD but now they are saying those were just technology demonstrators and NGAP will power NGAD. Guess we'll see. The XA-100 & 102 are from GE and the XA-101 and 103 are from P&W! GE did just get a massive engine deal for our 4th gen fighters though, for F-15 & F-16!
 
How does GE have five 5th gen tech when P&W engines power both F-22 & F-35? Now both are capable of producing it but only one has experience other than prototypes. Actually both are already working on their second 6th gen engines with the NGAP XA-102 & XA-103. They proved the tech with XA-100 & XA-101 which were supposed to power NGAD but now they are saying those were just technology demonstrators and NGAP will power NGAD. Guess we'll see. The XA-100 & 102 are from GE and the XA-101 and 103 are from P&W! GE did just get a massive engine deal for our 4th gen fighters though, for F-15 & F-16!
If P&W wanted to collaborate or cooperate with us, nothing like it. I don't see that. Their presence in India is much lower than GE.

Always wondered what happens to the losing prototypes, lol - YF-23, X-32, and the engines as well. From what I remember, the F-18 was the only design that lost to the F-16 and still made it into USAF/USN service, later becoming the Super Hornet.
 
What should actually be done is a joint production of a new engine (maybe flat nozzled and based on AL-51 stealth standards), which can replace GE-414. So basically, ditch Safran and RR, as honestly, I don't have high hopes from them that they would give us the actual technology. Russia, I still feel, might give us if we give them proper money!
Developing a new engine would take years. And if the question is basically size, then the size difference of air intakes (31 inch to 35 inch) isn't that big of a difference to create problems in adapting. Modifying designs would take only months. And oh, did I forget to mention, AMCA is just a design render right now, not an actual prototype! Engine size difference doesn't matter right now. And like mentioned in the article, large parts of the airframe, nozzles, intake vents, etc., are all not finalised and open to changes.
 
Nobody will give you the tech. Trust in nothing but the Kaveri. You are right, RR and Safran will use our money to come up with something they themselves don't have. GE is the only company already with the 5th gen tech.

AL51 is a generation ahead. 177s is a mishmash. It is like comparing F119/135 technology with F414.
Kaveri has been worked on for decades and is still coming up short. If we wait for Kaveri, it'll be 2050 by the time we get something. There is no harm in looking for expertise and help from outside.

RR and Safran are notorious for holding back core tech, yes. Russian UAC has already worked on several TOT projects previously with India and is actually offering the same for 177s and AL41, AL51 with Su57 as well.

177s is a mishmash ..... According to what source? Its stats fit perfectly for what IAF laid out. It has already been lab and ground tested.... Just flight tests remain.
 
Developing a new engine would take years. And if the question is basically size, then the size difference of air intakes (31 inch to 35 inch) isn't that big of a difference to create problems in adapting. Modifying designs would take only months. And oh, did I forget to mention, AMCA is just a design render right now, not an actual prototype! Engine size difference doesn't matter right now. And like mentioned in the article, large parts of the airframe, nozzles, intake vents, etc., are all not finalised and open to changes.
When you don't know stuff, why bother?
GE414 is 35in diameter and 154in length.
AL31/41/51 is 50in diameter and 190in length.
THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
And even a small difference can delay the project by years. AMCA is a design render? It's not a computer model. Its Critical Design Review and its wind tunnel testings all have been completed. These things take years. So any little change will delay it by years, and to accommodate Idzelie engine is basically not possible in AMCA.
 
When you don't know stuff, why bother?
GE414 is 35in diameter and 154in length.
AL31/41/51 is 50in diameter and 190in length.
THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
And even a small difference can delay the project by years. AMCA is a design render? It's not a computer model. Its Critical Design Review and its wind tunnel testings all have been completed. These things take years. So any little change will delay it by years, and to accommodate Idzelie engine is basically not possible in AMCA.
Haha...on the other hand, Russia actually has one of the worst track records when it comes to ToT. If you look at any of our current weapons, most either use western components or tech derived from them. Whether it's the engine or sensors of Arjun, or the turret or engine of Zorawar, to the radar and engine and other parts of Tejas to our SAM systems like Barak 8 and XRSAM. Russia only allows local manufacturing and cheats us in the name of that. France and UK and Israel on the other hand do actual ToT and even buys stuff back from us even outside the offset regimes. So west is far more reliable than Russia.
 
Kaveri has been worked on for decades and is still coming up short. If we wait for Kaveri, it'll be 2050 by the time we get something. There is no harm in looking for expertise and help from outside.

RR and Safran are notorious for holding back core tech, yes. Russian UAC has already worked on several TOT projects previously with India and is actually offering the same for 177s and AL41, AL51 with Su57 as well.

177s is a mishmash ..... According to what source? Its stats fit perfectly for what IAF laid out. It has already been lab and ground tested.... Just flight tests remain.
While Russia has worked on several ToT projects, their output has been abysmal to say the least. We were told we will make the Su30 MKI entirely in India, but the end result is that Russia held back 53% of the engine tech alone (officially confirmed by HAL chief just a few months back) and didn't give us much. Same goes for their proposal for Ka226T where they promised to give us 70% but refused to go beyond 35% once they won the tender. Look at Su57/FGFA as well, where they promised the moon but once India was invested, they forced HAL/DRDO to cut down their share in R&D and production by more than half and were looking to reduce it further when we cancelled it.

So Russia is the biggest cheater and there is enough evidence to back that claim.
 
FYI The Glass Fibre Plastic tech (of Izdeliye-30 AL-51) is a GENERATION ahead of the existing Metals/Alloys. I ALSO know that the Flat Nozzle has an average thrust reduction of 7-8% BUT WE will collaborate with Russia to get a higher thrust version of the 51. Currently the 51 (I-30) produces 37.5K pounds wid AFTERBURNER. If increased it's Dry thrust by 3K pounds more, the Afterburning thrust will ofc increase to 40.5K pounds.
And I am sure no one outside of Russia can verify these claims, right? Russia claimed huge numbers even for AL31 but when it was actually used it turned out the performance was far below the claims. Even Russia hasn't said so far that the engine works as intended. There is a reason India has simply kept the Russians out of AMCA and any other engine project development (apart from using their test facilities) - India simply doesn't trust Russian tech anymore and doesn't want any of it.
 
The EJ-200 is primarily based off of a Rolls Royce design. RR have the capabilities.
Ummm...nope. As per the official numbers, Eurojet consortium had to redesign 67% of the RR engine. It was such a mess. And the IPR for that 67% is not with RR. Though they did buy one of the Italian firms and now their IPR is around 44%. Still, 56% is not with them. And India's main issues are the compressor and the after burner, and both of them are not present with RR. So RR doesn't have the tech we need.
 
We tried to jump ahead for developing engine tech. We thought without appearing for 10th boards we will directly go for JEE. Before developing Kaveri we should have developed lower KN engines for our trainers and Jaguars. Around 48 KN dry thrust is a slow achievement but not many countries can do that.
I told you in the past, yet you make the same claims buddy. GTRE actually started by making a 10kN engine (this engine never entered production though GTRE called it a success). Then they made reheat systems (afterburners) and compressors to improve some imported engines. Then they made another jet engine with power of around 30kN. This engine also never entered production. Then they worked on Kaveri.

So GoI didn't directly move to this level. They did go gradually but GTRE kept lying to them. As of now, even we are in the list of countries which can't make a 48kN dry thrust engine as Kaveri isn't working and is useless.
 
We want the 177S engine or AL51 with a flat nozzle for Super Sukhoi upgradation and the Su57 stealth fighter. AMCA is going ahead with the GE F414 and subsequent 110kN joint development with GE.
No, we don't want any of those engines for Su30MKI and we surely don't want Su57, let alone any engines for them. This is the official stance of IAF. They tested it all and found them completely useless.
 
Haha...on the other hand, Russia actually has one of the worst track records when it comes to ToT. If you look at any of our current weapons, most either use western components or tech derived from them. Whether it's the engine or sensors of Arjun, or the turret or engine of Zorawar, to the radar and engine and other parts of Tejas to our SAM systems like Barak 8 and XRSAM. Russia only allows local manufacturing and cheats us in the name of that. France and UK and Israel on the other hand do actual ToT and even buys stuff back from us even outside the offset regimes. So west is far more reliable than Russia.
That's a never-ending debate 🤣 but tbh India lacked the basic intent to adapt the technology in case of ToT. We mostly just stayed till screwdriving. And Israel has actually provided us technology and know-how, no doubt. France overcharges a lot, the Mirage blunder to sabko pata hi hai, now the Scorpene blunder too. But at least they gave us tech for helicopter engines. Sabke pros cons hain. Btw, engine technology koi nahi dega inme se 🤣. The faster we understand, the better. Get some foreign ex-GE, RR, Safran guys. Pay them huge. And involve private and IIT/IISc with DRDO. And make 110Kn Kaveri in Mission Mode. Jo 4-5Bn$ lagne hain, lagao.
 
I think European nations needing funding for their 6th gen jet program. Money invested by India for AMCA engine tech & ToT, whether it is on RR or Safran will finance their engine development effort for their respective GCAP and FCAS programme.
 
That's a never-ending debate 🤣 but tbh India lacked the basic intent to adapt the technology in case of ToT. We mostly just stayed till screwdriving. And Israel has actually provided us technology and know-how, no doubt. France overcharges a lot, the Mirage blunder to sabko pata hi hai, now the Scorpene blunder too. But at least they gave us tech for helicopter engines. Sabke pros cons hain. Btw, engine technology koi nahi dega inme se 🤣. The faster we understand, the better. Get some foreign ex-GE, RR, Safran guys. Pay them huge. And involve private and IIT/IISc with DRDO. And make 110Kn Kaveri in Mission Mode. Jo 4-5Bn$ lagne hain, lagao.
No it's not. Just look at the imports by Russia for any product that they gave us ToT or license manufactured. Can you name even one? No. On the other hand, Israel imported drones from us, France still imports components from us (based on the offsets of the Rafale deal, but the imports are being done even after the offsets are done), UK has signed an MoU to import missiles from us (as Rafale offsets). Even if you wanna compare, you can see that there is an inverse correlation between our imports from Russia and our defense exports and our defense production. So I can say with conclusive evidence that West has given us better quality help when it comes to defense ToT. Can you say the same?

As for the French bashing you keep doing, I can again counter you there. MDL chairman is on record saying that France went well beyond the mandate of the agreement and gave us local manufacturing without charging us for it. So you are again spreading misinformation when you say they overcharge.

And finally, regarding engines. France has offered it multiple times in the past. Sure, they want money. They are not gonna do charity. But when you look at the offers, they are rather justifiable. Say, they asked for a billion dollars to make Kaveri work. Compare that to the cost of the barrel tech of T90 alone, for which Russia charged us 1.2 billion USD. GTRE is asking for some 5 billion USD for AMCA engine. So the 1 billion sounds quite reasonable from that perspective.

So I can give data and facts. You are the one who argues with rhetoric.
 
No it's not. Just look at the imports by Russia for any product that they gave us ToT or license manufactured. Can you name even one? No. On the other hand, Israel imported drones from us, France still imports components from us (based on the offsets of the Rafale deal, but the imports are being done even after the offsets are done), UK has signed an MoU to import missiles from us (as Rafale offsets). Even if you wanna compare, you can see that there is an inverse correlation between our imports from Russia and our defense exports and our defense production. So I can say with conclusive evidence that West has given us better quality help when it comes to defense ToT. Can you say the same?

As for the French bashing you keep doing, I can again counter you there. MDL chairman is on record saying that France went well beyond the mandate of the agreement and gave us local manufacturing without charging us for it. So you are again spreading misinformation when you say they overcharge.

And finally, regarding engines. France has offered it multiple times in the past. Sure, they want money. They are not gonna do charity. But when you look at the offers, they are rather justifiable. Say, they asked for a billion dollars to make Kaveri work. Compare that to the cost of the barrel tech of T90 alone, for which Russia charged us 1.2 billion USD. GTRE is asking for some 5 billion USD for AMCA engine. So the 1 billion sounds quite reasonable from that perspective.

So I can give data and facts. You are the one who argues with rhetoric.
The offset clauses are something which are to be made before the purchases, and India bought all the major Russian equipment pre-2010 era. After that, other than the S400, we haven't gotten any capital asset from Russia as such.

And India has grown its defence production only recently, and eventually, of course, we export them now. Israel buying from us is due to two reasons: they don’t have in-house production capacity like what Russia has. Secondly, Israel imported drones because they needed them in war. Russia needed artillery rounds, India sold them too. That’s business.

Don't mix up things to portray your views as logical; I can call your bluff. Now, regarding France, I acknowledged that they did give helicopter engine technology, but you also must acknowledge what they did with us in the Mirage 2000s and its maintenance and upgrades. Please do read about it.

And have you seen the cost of Scorpene submarines which we are re-ordering? France always charges at least 1.5 times what they should. But I still think they have always stood by India, at a cost, but they are better than the US or UK.

But I am seeing both sides of the coin, unlike you, who is way too biased in your views.
 
I told you in the past, yet you make the same claims buddy. GTRE actually started by making a 10kN engine (this engine never entered production though GTRE called it a success). Then they made reheat systems (afterburners) and compressors to improve some imported engines. Then they made another jet engine with power of around 30kN. This engine also never entered production. Then they worked on Kaveri.

So GoI didn't directly move to this level. They did go gradually but GTRE kept lying to them. As of now, even we are in the list of countries which can't make a 48kN dry thrust engine as Kaveri isn't working and is useless.
The 10 kN engine was in the late 50s. Why was it abandoned? I could not get any article on that. Even Marut was abandoned. We had a strong import lobby even then. From the late 50s to the late 80s, when Kaveri engine funding was approved, we lost a lot of our engineering knowledge and expertise built while developing the 10 kN engine. Can you share any article on GTRE's 30 kN engine? I do not know about it and am not sure if it existed or not. Not sure if you intend to say Orpheus engines, on which HAL was working.

By the way, from where did you get the news that the Kaveri 48 kN dry thrust engine is not working? If so, why limited production by Godrej? In a few months, test reports from recent FTB tests will also be out. Recall, in 2022, one Kaveri successfully demonstrated 48 kN.

Failure and success are a part of R&D. We need to pursue it and build on our past achievements and rectify our mistakes. Jet engines are bleeding-edge tech, we won't get them by paying a few billion dollars. The only way is building on our own industrial capacity and our own R&D.
 
The 10 kN engine was in the late 50s. Why was it abandoned? I could not get any article on that. Even Marut was abandoned. We had a strong import lobby even then. From the late 50s to the late 80s, when Kaveri engine funding was approved, we lost a lot of our engineering knowledge and expertise built while developing the 10 kN engine. Can you share any article on GTRE's 30 kN engine? I do not know about it and am not sure if it existed or not. Not sure if you intend to say Orpheus engines, on which HAL was working.

By the way, from where did you get the news that the Kaveri 48 kN dry thrust engine is not working? If so, why limited production by Godrej? In a few months, test reports from recent FTB tests will also be out. Recall, in 2022, one Kaveri successfully demonstrated 48 kN.

Failure and success are a part of R&D. We need to pursue it and build on our past achievements and rectify our mistakes. Jet engines are bleeding-edge tech, we won't get them by paying a few billion dollars. The only way is building on our own industrial capacity and our own R&D.
Indeed, Orphius was one of the engines. Then there was another engine (you can read the name on Wikipedia, but the details of it's performance are not available online).

Limited production of multiple units of Kaveri was also done around 2011 for testing. Does that mean Kaveri is now working? GTRE/DRDO keep spreading such lies now and then to deflect blame. So it's not working till the time a product using that engine is actually inducted in the armed forces. Otherwise you can keep assuming it works based on DRDO reports such as 'it cleared all trials', 'it is ready for production' etc.

And you are absolutely right. We will not get bleeding edge tech so easily. And we will surely not get it by funding GTRE. You can go back and see the history. They keep lying and always fail to deliver. So invest in desi engines, I am not arguing against it. My only argument is that DRDO should not be a part of any such effort in any way or manner.
 
The offset clauses are something which are to be made before the purchases, and India bought all the major Russian equipment pre-2010 era. After that, other than the S400, we haven't gotten any capital asset from Russia as such.

And India has grown its defence production only recently, and eventually, of course, we export them now. Israel buying from us is due to two reasons: they don’t have in-house production capacity like what Russia has. Secondly, Israel imported drones because they needed them in war. Russia needed artillery rounds, India sold them too. That’s business.

Don't mix up things to portray your views as logical; I can call your bluff. Now, regarding France, I acknowledged that they did give helicopter engine technology, but you also must acknowledge what they did with us in the Mirage 2000s and its maintenance and upgrades. Please do read about it.

And have you seen the cost of Scorpene submarines which we are re-ordering? France always charges at least 1.5 times what they should. But I still think they have always stood by India, at a cost, but they are better than the US or UK.

But I am seeing both sides of the coin, unlike you, who is way too biased in your views.
So as I said, there is an inverse relationship between our purchases from Russia and our own defense production and export capacity, right?

And no. India didn't sell any artillery rounds to Russia. Please show me one official source stating that (I did a google and GPT search 'India exporting artillery rounds to Russia' and all the links I got were regarding Indian exports to Ukraine, via the west). So even during the war Russia refuses to buy from us. So I am the one who has called all your bluffs while you are the one who fails to prove me wrong even once.

Now regarding France. You say France charges us 1.5 times more. But the fact is that they are always the L1. Either they are providing us tech which no one else does (like help with Kaveri) or they are the cheapest one. Mirage upgrade cost was so high because they were upgrading them only and only for us, so the entire R&D cost was borne by us.

So instead, it is you who is biased and wants to spread a propaganda against France without referring to facts. I can challenge you to prove that France is charging us 1.5 times. But I know you won't be able to.
 
So as I said, there is an inverse relationship between our purchases from Russia and our own defense production and export capacity, right?

And no. India didn't sell any artillery rounds to Russia. Please show me one official source stating that (I did a google and GPT search 'India exporting artillery rounds to Russia' and all the links I got were regarding Indian exports to Ukraine, via the west). So even during the war Russia refuses to buy from us. So I am the one who has called all your bluffs while you are the one who fails to prove me wrong even once.

Now regarding France. You say France charges us 1.5 times more. But the fact is that they are always the L1. Either they are providing us tech which no one else does (like help with Kaveri) or they are the cheapest one. Mirage upgrade cost was so high because they were upgrading them only and only for us, so the entire R&D cost was borne by us.

So instead, it is you who is biased and wants to spread a propaganda against France without referring to facts. I can challenge you to prove that France is charging us 1.5 times. But I know you won't be able to.
Well, of course India didn't export to Russia openly. It was a war.

India didn't even export to Israel openly; it came in the news only after a shipment was caught by Spain en route.

And with respect to Russia, it was mentioned that many oil tankers didn't go back empty from India. India helped Russia in matters of artillery, electronics (dual use), and by the way, all of Russia's military boots demand was also catered to by Bihar.

So I know what I'm saying. If you don't read enough, I can't do much. You have to stay current; ChatGPT can't help you with info either.

And with respect to France, what I said is 100% correct. They have looted us a lot of times! Yes, looted. But fair enough that they gave some technology as well; loot justified. Happy?
 

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