Tejas Trainer Program Gains Momentum: Sixth Aircraft Nears Delivery

The Indian Air Force's (IAF) commitment to bolstering its training capabilities with the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas continues to materialize, with the recent sighting of the sixth Tejas trainer at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's (HAL) production facility.

Images of the Tejas trainer, designated LT 5206, indicate the aircraft is in the final stages of assembly. This marks a significant milestone following the delivery of the first twin-seater trainer (LT 5201) to the IAF in October 2023.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1770772352013369461

These specialized trainers are designed to facilitate smoother pilot transition within IAF squadrons, prior to their assignment to the advanced single-seater Tejas Mk1A fighter.

Notably, an additional trainer, LT 5205, appears ready for delivery and is likely undergoing pre-flight taxi trials. These developments suggest a steady ramp-up of the Tejas trainer program.

The IAF has committed to acquiring 18 LCA Tejas twin-seater trainers. This strategic investment ensures that pilots converting from legacy aircraft will have access to a training platform tailored to the complexities of the Tejas Mk1A.

The growth of the IAF's Tejas trainer fleet underscores India's dedication to achieving self-reliance in pilot training, using its own domestically developed fighter aircraft.

By providing a seamless conversion path, the Tejas trainer will play a pivotal role in preparing a new generation of pilots for the IAF's future fleet of single-seater Tejas Mk1A fighters.

 

[Ashutosh]

PIB has said that 3 mk1a shall be delivered by 03 Feb 2024. Where are those?

They are delaying that . Not gonna deny that.

 

[Akshat]

They are delaying that . Not gonna deny that.

Exactly the point. We can debate the exact number of trainers but in any case they are delaying it massively.

 

[Ashutosh]

The order from govt is that an SPV model with private players should be formed. But private players have flagged concerns such as high costs, lack of expertise etc. As far as I know, ADA and HAL have not been the issue. Where did you get this info?

Bro u shall tell him that ADA has done more than enough individual discussions and even held one large discussion still Pvt. Sector couldn't gather the guts to invest

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Bro u shall tell him that ADA has done more than enough individual discussions and even held one large discussion still Pvt. Sector couldn't gather the guts to invest

I mean you cant blame private sector also, since they have no prior expertise. If I told you tomorrow that go build me a 5th gen stealth fighter, dont worry I will buy them at 20% premium if you build them. Only HAL has expertise and capacity to build fighter jets in India

 

[Sandeep]

India needs to quickly deliver the first two Tejas MK1A jets so that the Air Force, HAL, ADA can run the tests and certify the advanced technology that they created which will take a while. However, HAL needs to quickly manufacture and deliver more trainers because it takes a number of years to train a pilot and without pilots the jets manufactured will just be grounded.

The government should just give the private sector a free license to manufacture the Tejas jets which will encourage more private participation. Instead of creating the usual confidential tender to ask a company to place a confidential and private bid to manufacture a number of jets and the winner is the company who bids the lowest price this method doesn't allow a company to change their bid amount afterwards they submit their offer.

Instead the government should create a open and public viewable AUCTION where the companies can place a bid and if they want to win the contract and there is a lot of competition then those companies can change their bid to a lower amount. This increases more company competition to the tender and it can drive down the cost even more if they want to win the contract whereas holding a closed tender doesn't allow the company to reduce their bid even more despite having the capacity and financial ability to do so.

Modern defence contracts need to be AUCTIONED and not be a closed and private bid where the company has to achieve a simple L1 status to win the contract.

 

[Akshat]

Because MK1a is the first jet of its class and it has many new components, most of which are indigenous. Cannot compare to rafale, which dassault has been building for years.

Regarding that reliance shipyard, reliance (anil ambani) had boight that shipyard after it had received the orders. But then reliance itself sank and shipyard also sank. The delay was very heavy and not even 1 ship out of 5 was delivered, and 2 more years later when deliverieas still not done, the contract was cancelled.

You cant compare a bankrupt company incapable of making delivery to HAL.

The company was an ongoing concern when the guarantees were encashed. Contract laws apply all the same to any company which is an ongoing concern.

Similarly, it was HAL which signed the deal. So whether it’s a new design or an old one is immaterial. Sole point that matters is that a contract was signed and it was breached. Nothing else matters at all. HAL shall be made to pay liquidation penalties for this delay and that penalty shall not be from the share of the tax payers but from the administration. You cannot take money from one pocket of the government and give it to the other pocket. That’s the whole point.

As for a ‘first jet’, all the changes to mk1a are electronic or additive components. We did that with Rafale as well in the form of ISE. So there is a one to one comparison here.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

ACM Bhadoria has said this on record. He said that only one session for discussion was its private players was held. He said ADA and HAL should hold more such sessions and that they have not been held. So if something is their job and it is not being done, whose mistake is it?

I have seen his interview as well, I dont think he was blaming HAL and ADA. just because more meetings were not held does not mean HAL is blocking it. These kinds of discussions need not only take place in specific large scale meetings. Phone calls etc can also be used to discuss stuff.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

The company was an ongoing concern when the guarantees were encashed. Contract laws apply all the same to any company which is an ongoing concern.

Similarly, it was HAL which signed the deal. So whether it’s a new design or an old one is immaterial. Sole point that matters is that a contract was signed and it was breached. Nothing else matters at all. HAL shall be made to pay liquidation penalties for this delay and that penalty shall not be from the share of the tax payers but from the administration. You cannot take money from one pocket of the government and give it to the other pocket. That’s the whole point.

As for a ‘first jet’, all the changes to mk1a are electronic or additive components. We did that with Rafale as well in the form of ISE. So there is a one to one comparison here.

Are you aware of the contract details that state that if HAL is late by even one day in delivering first mk1a jet they will have to pay penalty? I am not aware of such a clause. If such a clause is there then I am with you in demanding that HAL pay a fine

 

[Akshat]

I have seen his interview as well, I dont think he was blaming HAL and ADA. just because more meetings were not held does not mean HAL is blocking it. These kinds of discussions need not only take place in specific large scale meetings. Phone calls etc can also be used to discuss stuff.

He specifically said that more such sessions are needed and HAL and ADA need to hold those. He very specifically blamed HAL and ADA. By name.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

He specifically said that more such sessions are needed and HAL and ADA need to hold those. He very specifically blamed HAL and ADA. By name.

No he didnt place the blame on HAL and ADA. He said that HAL and ADA had held meeting for it and more meetings are needed. What my point is that concerns are known after the first meeting, and unless those are addressed, future meetings are pointless. Work goes on behind the scenes. These meetings are meant to formalise things when decision is made. You can negotiate a multi billion dollar SPV deal in a 2 hour meeting.

 

[Anurag]

As per Anantkrishnan, someone people in this forum (and otherwise favoring HAL) regard very highly, has given this schedule. This was also touted at the time of the deal signing for Mk1a. Even otherwise, at least 8 trainers and 3 mk1a were there. PIB release says that 3 mk1a were to be delivered within 36 months which expired on 3 Feb this year.

As per the source you mentioned (same for me too) 8 trainer and 3 Mk1a aircraft to be delivered in 2024 and delivery should start from the Feb/March
If the first flight is nearby ready and they are delaying for some reason(I don't know exactly what's going on) that's fine for me that they are almost ready to deliver 4 trainer and 2 mk1a as the year progressed and they deliver 2 more birds then it will be fine for me!!

 

[Akshat]

No he didnt place the blame on HAL and ADA. He said that HAL and ADA had held meeting for it and more meetings are needed. What my point is that concerns are known after the first meeting, and unless those are addressed, future meetings are pointless. Work goes on behind the scenes. These meetings are meant to formalise things when decision is made. You can negotiate a multi billion dollar SPV deal in a 2 hour meeting.

He specifically said that more sessions are needed and they are ADA and HAL’s job and they have not been held. So that’s a direct indictment of those 2. He specifically said that those sessions are needed.

 

[Akshat]

Are you aware of the contract details that state that if HAL is late by even one day in delivering first mk1a jet they will have to pay penalty? I am not aware of such a clause. If such a clause is there then I am with you in demanding that HAL pay a fine

It was reported on this very website. Plus it was said on record in a video interview by HAL chief. There was a penalty of 10% per aircraft every year for missing the mandated delivery schedule. Though now I can’t find the li k and only a quora link is available. Apparently the administration of this site has taken the article down. The link is not working. You can google if you want.

 

[Anurag]

Not this year. The date was 3Feb 2024. 36 months officially ended on that day. And they ain’t delivering any mk1a for his financial year as it takes a while for the plane to get inducted. The Tejas trainer was inducted 5 months after the roll out. In mk1a ‘s case, HAL will deliver 2, use them for certification and then make the rest. So these will take a long long time for delivery.

Well what I know is that after signing the deal delivery start after the 36 months and I totally agree on that front that is should have start in Feb but saying that they should have delivered 8+3 birds at this point of the time for me is not understandable!!

 

[Bharat]

I say it is right time to bring in a Private Company to establish another manufacturing plant to produce Tejas IA at maximum possible rate and give some competition to HAL.
HAL surely needs to adapt itself to work like Dassault which is also owned by French government and private equity.

India will not be able to meet the milestones of so many fighter development and manufacturing without changing the public companies practices.

Dassault is not owned by the French government in any way, shape or form.

 

[Anurag]

Buddy, PIB release itself said that 3 mk1a are to be delivered within 36 months of the deal signing. That expired on 3 Feb 2024.

Similarly, Ananthkrishnan, who is considered to be a relatively reliable source by HAL supporters, has said that HAL will work on all 18 trainers after the delivery of first 2 mk1a, which are to be used for certification, and then make more Mk1a.

So please update yourself. As for Dassault, they asked for an amount, and committed a number. And they delivered. HAL asked for an amount and committed a number. Our IAF is still waiting for those.

First as I have seen PIB release too and delivery should start in 3 years or 36 months, and I don't know which article refer that 3 Mk1a should delivered within 36 months...

And about last line deal of rafale and Tejas Mk1a both are different in their own ways their is no comparison between both of them!!

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

It was reported on this very website. Plus it was said on record in a video interview by HAL chief. There was a penalty of 10% per aircraft every year for missing the mandated delivery schedule. Though now I can’t find the li k and only a quora link is available. Apparently the administration of this site has taken the article down. The link is not working. You can google if you want.

I found the quora article, but I bleive that HAL may have gotten some relaxation later on by citing Covid. Otherwise we need to wait for some Reporter to ask either the HAL official or IAF regarding penalties.

 

[Akshat]

I found the quora article, but I bleive that HAL may have gotten some relaxation later on by citing Covid. Otherwise we need to wait for some Reporter to ask either the HAL official or IAF regarding penalties.

The deal was signed after Covid. Private companies delivered products on time even during the peak of the COVID. So the contract has surely been breached, unless stated otherwise.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

He specifically said that more sessions are needed and they are ADA and HAL’s job and they have not been held. So that’s a direct indictment of those 2. He specifically said that those sessions are needed.

what were his exact words? Did he say, HAL and ADA are responsible for delay, or HAL and ADA are making it difficult for Private players to get in, or did he say that HAL and ADA are deliberately making it difficult for SPV model to succeed. He just said that HAL and ADA need to have more meetings. This is not "blame". From what I have heard that private players are not worried about HAL, they have different wories related to cost and expertise.

 

[Akshat]

First as I have seen PIB release too and delivery should start in 3 years or 36 months, and I don't know which article refer that 3 Mk1a should delivered within 36 months...

And about last line deal of rafale and Tejas Mk1a both are different in their own ways their is no comparison between both of them!!

It’s a direct on win one comparison between 2 significantly modified planes with no aerodynamic changes.

The PIB release itself says 3 planes in 36 months. No need of going anywhere else if you have read that.

 

[Ashutosh]

I mean you cant blame private sector also, since they have no prior expertise. If I told you tomorrow that go build me a 5th gen stealth fighter, dont worry I will buy them at 20% premium if you build them. Only HAL has expertise and capacity to build fighter jets in India

I totally and respectfully agree that , koi apna nuksan nhi karega and the one who says Pvt. Sector are money looters and not nationalist - I simply shut them up by asking him if if he is better than them then simply set an example for them by urself giving ur property to GOI in the name of charity

 

[Akshat]

Well what I know is that after signing the deal delivery start after the 36 months and I totally agree on that front that is should have start in Feb but saying that they should have delivered 8+3 birds at this point of the time for me is not understandable!!

Let’s forget the speicifica for a bit. Isn’t it undeniable that HAL has missed the deadline and must be severely punished for it? Heads should roll for this u acceptable delay?

 

[Akshat]

As per the source you mentioned (same for me too) 8 trainer and 3 Mk1a aircraft to be delivered in 2024 and delivery should start from the Feb/March
If the first flight is nearby ready and they are delaying for some reason(I don't know exactly what's going on) that's fine for me that they are almost ready to deliver 4 trainer and 2 mk1a as the year progressed and they deliver 2 more birds then it will be fine for me!!

3 mk1a in 36 months is what was committed. That has not been delivered. The written contract is all that matters.

 

[Sudha]

HAL is steadily improving day by day From 2025/26 it may deliver 16 jets per year.

Have they yet delivered the original 40 tejas contracted for? There is no news after 32 & one trainer was delivered. So how it is an improvement? Moreover tejasmk1a is HAL's baby & it will be delivered prompltly.

 

[Sudha]

They are still short … but not by the margin that you claim. They were supposed to complete initial order and deliver 2 Mk1A from the new order of 83.

If they can deliver 6 trainers + 2 Mk 1A this year, that will be serious improvement considering HAL. More so, these two are new types and generally first example with these kinds of improvements take much longer. For example, Dassault took nearly 3 years for the first example with some India specific enhancements and nearly five years for the first example with all enhancements. These were enhancements and not a new type. But comparison ends here … Dassault did what they committed.IAF gave them a much longer rope and we paid $1.5B for just the changes.

They have not yet made good on the first 40 tejasmk1 contracted for.

 

[Sudha]

Bro where have HAL said of delivering all trainers before mk1a !?

8+ 2 shall be delivered this year.
+1 mk1a

Financial year will close within 8 days & you expect they will deliver that quantity? 🤣

 

[Sudha]

As per the source you mentioned (same for me too) 8 trainer and 3 Mk1a aircraft to be delivered in 2024 and delivery should start from the Feb/March
If the first flight is nearby ready and they are delaying for some reason(I don't know exactly what's going on) that's fine for me that they are almost ready to deliver 4 trainer and 2 mk1a as the year progressed and they deliver 2 more birds then it will be fine for me!!

Delaying is nothing new for HAL. That is the bone of contention for everyone. Delays & delays. In 2023-24 HAL delivered only one trainer. WOW!

 

[Sudha]

Only 6 ?

That will still be a record if it happens.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

The deal was signed after Covid. Private companies delivered products on time even during the peak of the COVID. So the contract has surely been breached, unless stated otherwise.

the deal was singed in Jan 2021, covid was still causing disruptions that time. And Covid would have caused disruptions and backlogs in past 1 year. So that must have needed clearing up. Maybe behind the scenes some compromise was reached, IDK.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

He specifically said that more sessions are needed and they are ADA and HAL’s job and they have not been held. So that’s a direct indictment of those 2. He specifically said that those sessions are needed.

Oh so you mean to say that all HAL and ADA need to do is hold regular meetings with private players to make SPV model feasible? If this were true then DoD would have already made them do it. You cant be serious when you say that just because HAL and ADA are not having meetings, the entire AMCA program is in limbo. You think negotiations and talks are not going on to find solution for such an important project?