India Eyes Advanced German Submarines: Focus on Stealth and Air-Independent Propulsion

An Indian Navy delegation is embarking on a visit to ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) facilities in Germany.

Their mission? A close inspection of the advanced U-212/214 submarines offered as part of India's ambitious Project-75I, a tender designed to significantly modernize the nation's underwater combat capabilities.

Project 75I: A Critical Investment​

Project-75I is a cornerstone of India's naval modernization plans. It aims to acquire six next-generation, conventionally powered submarines equipped with cutting-edge technologies.

These submarines are crucial for safeguarding India's vast maritime interests and maintaining strategic leverage in the Indian Ocean region.

The U-212/214 Advantage​

The German-designed U-212/214 class submarines stand out due to their unique design. Their 'one-and-a-half' hull configuration and non-magnetic steel pressure hull grant them exceptional stealth capabilities, making them challenging to detect.

However, the key advantage lies in their Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) system. AIP technology allows submarines to operate submerged for extended periods without surfacing to recharge batteries. This significantly reduces vulnerability and dramatically expands the submarines' operational reach.

Partnership and Technology Transfer​

TKMS's bid for Project-75I includes a collaboration with India's Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL). This aligns with India's ambition to develop a robust indigenous shipbuilding industry through technology transfers.

If successful, this partnership could give India the knowledge and capabilities for future submarine construction and maintenance.

A Strategic Assessment​

The Indian Navy's inspection signifies a vital step in Project-75I. If the U-212/214 submarines impress, further negotiations could commence, potentially culminating in their acquisition.

The addition of these stealthy, long-endurance submarines would represent a major leap forward for India's maritime defense posture.

The Future of India's Underwater Strength​

The outcome of Project-75I will have far-reaching implications for the balance of power in the Indian Ocean.

The Indian Navy's expanding capabilities are essential to maintaining regional stability and protecting India's economic and strategic interests at sea.

 

[Sandeep]

It's wastage of time & resources, Indian Navy should've considered to invest in:-

1. Additional 3 to 6 Kalvari-SSKs with DRDO's AIP system
2. At least 12 Super-Kalvari SSKs with DRDO's AIP system

This could've allowed Indian shipbuilding industry to have work for almost a decade & for Indian-Navy to get SSKs at a cheaper rate due to Economy of Scales.

Save money on SSKs & invest in SSNs.

France or India didn't offer to develop a super Kalvari submarine made longer and install a VLS. To develop that it would cost billions more because France would have to almost like build a new submarine, make major modifications to the technology, parts, components, equipment, install the indigenous AIP but then they would have to run a lot of tests just to certify it so installing a VLS would take a long time and cost billions. It would be much cheaper, quicker and easier to just buy more original Kalvari submarine as they are because they are still better than the Russian Kilo submarines we currently use. Another issue is that our SLCM wouldn't be compatible because of the size, dimensions, software that's used on our missiles and without that the VLS it would be pointless. Another issue is that the Kalvari submarines technology was around 20+ years old already and even if they modernised or installed more indigenous parts it was outdated and the navy needed a much more modern and lethal submarine but the Kalvari wouldn't be able to match the latest submarine technology.

 

[Benith Israel]

Free overseas tour to france, Germany and espsniola. For great deals contact Indian Navy

 

[The_rED_dEVIL]

The german Subs are more capable than spanish subs. But spanish seem more forthcoming and enthusiastic.

Navy will make good choice. I trust them with procurement matters. Unlike the army.

The problem is MDL. They say the follow up order for 3 Kalvari class submarine, if ordered in 2024 will take upto 2031 to complete... so when will they start 6 P75I and 12 P76?

What I think is, this order (P75I) should have gone to L&T irrespective of German or Spanish design, Kalvari follow on order to MDL and P76 should be a split order to MDL and L&T in 1:1 ratio.

 

[beencensured]

This same Indian Navy Choose TYPE 209 instead of Kokums (SWEDEN)Sub! In 1980s the Kokums Submarine is the best in the world.

Sterling AIP is not best for tropical waters with less temperature gradients as sterling aip work better in cold and temperate climates.

 

[Tls Mani]

Germany is unreliable partner. They have fake & funny rules & assumptions. They are the ones who have helped China to a position of bullying the world with no regard to transparency or civilian concerns etc while they talk of human rights abuse etc which is not dven skindeep

 

[Tls Mani]

1980 orders were scams due to the political set up at that time. CommissionMoney was the criteria & not equipment or country of origin

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

The problem is MDL. They say the follow up order for 3 Kalvari class submarine, if ordered in 2024 will take upto 2031 to complete... so when will they start 6 P75I and 12 P76?

What I think is, this order (P75I) should have gone to L&T irrespective of German or Spanish design, Kalvari follow on order to MDL and P76 should be a split order to MDL and L&T in 1:1 ratio.

I agree with you on kalvari follow on order and order split for P76, but for P75I, we cant have just 1 bidder on L&T. it would lead to single vendor situation which is very undesirable, as competition wont be there. I believe that MDL can work simultaneously, after all, the previous kalvari class subs also go for maintenance, and overhauls, and these shipbuilders have multiple docks. P75I will take few years to get going.

 

[Aayush Pratap]

Any business with Germany must be done with ironclad agreements. They're more flaky than my ex.

 

[Sudha]

I agree with you on kalvari follow on order and order split for P76, but for P75I, we cant have just 1 bidder on L&T. it would lead to single vendor situation which is very undesirable, as competition wont be there. I believe that MDL can work simultaneously, after all, the previous kalvari class subs also go for maintenance, and overhauls, and these shipbuilders have multiple docks. P75I will take few years to get going.

If it goes to MDL do not complain when there is increase in taxes since there will be 100% cost escalation due to very very late delivery by MDL.

 

[Sudha]

Sterling AIP is not best for tropical waters with less temperature gradients as sterling aip work better in cold and temperate climates.

Think you are having severe hallucinations. You aren't even an engineer, from where do you pick these fairy tales?

 

[Sudha]

We need 24 ssk. So 9 kalvari +9 super kalvari+ 6 212/214

What else huzoor?

 

[Sudha]

Dude, navy already had planned out the procurement many years before hand. It was already agreed that Project 75 will be followed by project 75I. Our desi shipyards will build in S5 and 75 alpha projects.

75I always involved foreign subs. Also, 75I subs are much larger and much more advanced than 75 subs. These german subs are the best diesel electric subs right now. Cant expect MDL to go straight to designing and buildimg cutting edge subs after assembling 6 small subs with older tech.

Submarines require immense amount of R&D.

You are wrong. Project P75I was supposed to be indigenously build & priority was supposed to be given to private sector. Since MDL failed to absorb the tech in scorpene project ultimately GOI had to go for foreign subs. The GOI is repeating the same mistakes as in scorpene by involving MDL in P75I. Another round of delay, cost escalation & MDL cannot even deliver these even after 2 decades.

 

[Anant]

Well, money was paid to DCNS in the name of ToT to MDL.
If not much learning happened the fault lay with MDL.

The Koreans learned from whatever technology was transferred to them as part of KSS-II submarine project and let the technology evolve into an improved KSS-III submarine which they have been pitching in the international market.

MDL could have built an improved Kalvari class by substituting parts for which technoloy was not transferred with local alternatives. But they decided not to pursue the long-term game.

The Koreans also learnt from the KSS-I (Type 209) boats besides the KSS-II (Type 214) construction contracts. Moreover, they hired a number of external consultants for the KSS-III.

That said, our DPSUs are horribly inefficient, and tend to lose a lot of institutional knowledge by dint of inaction.

 

[Sudha]

It would have taken a lot of R&D, subsystems would have to be designed, local vendores would have to be developed. This is somethimg that requires long time planning. Decade long.

Submarines are extremely tech heavy like fighter jets. They need a very large amount of R&D. And performance is paramount same as faighter jets. This is different to an AC. for AC you just need quantity. Need to build a huge flat deck which can float.

Without even much of foreign collaboration L&T manufactured Arihant class subs. So do not give the excuse of "taken a lot of R&D". Why not give this project to L&T & see how it will deliver the subs on time?

 

[Anant]

Great news.
Glad to know that GoI is pushing hard to acquire P-75I submarines.

Germany is really trying very hard to get this contract with offers of Non-Magnet Hull for stealth and new generation of AIP, and also possibly Lion battery systems too.

Try to give this contract to L&T as it already has good experience building nuclear submarines.

MDL already has its hands full with completion of 6 Scorpenes and putting Indian AIPs during mid-life upgrades. Furthermore, India is considering adding 3 more improved Scorpenes with AIPs too.

Keep pushing it hard as India badly needs at least 24 modern SSKs to thwart the designs of two enemies.

Make up your mind: Germany and the Type 212/214 boats built at MDL or Spain and the S80 Plus boats built at L&T? Both TKMS and Navantia have already put contracts in place with the respective shipyards, and switches would be exceptionally difficult and time-consuming to bring about.

 

[Sudha]

Will Germany share the magnetic hull tech of U212 submarine..?
U214 is export version will lesser capability than U212.

Non magnetic hull you mean.

 

[Anant]

We need 24 ssk. So 9 kalvari +9 super kalvari+ 6 212/214

The 1999 plan called for 18 SSKs and 6 SSNs. This would be made up by 6 Project 75 boats, 6 Project 75I boats, 6 Project 76 boats, and 6 Project 75A boats (the latter being SSNs).

The Navy today is targeting some 24-27 SSKs, which would be made of 9 Kalvaris, 6 Project 75Is, and 9-12 Project 76 boats. SSNs are planned as is.

 

[Anant]

Even Korean that is based on Type-212 didn’t have VLS initially, but Koreans added now that has 6 VLS cells, we need modified Type-212 class submarine that Germany made for Israel with VLS cells called INS Drakon that belongs to Dolphin class Israel.

That can be done, but as is very evident, adding in a VLS plug would require a massive redesign of the submarine. At that point, you may as well design a submarine from scratch using existing sub-components.

 

[Anant]

Koreans are good in manufacturing, Germany already modified Type-212 to include VLS for Israel, we can ask the Germans to provide us the same design as Israeli INS Drakon, this is enlarged variant of Type 212.

Oh, and the INS Drakon is not a modified Type 212 submarine. It is a heavily enlarged and modified Type 209 submarine. The Batch 2 Dolphin-class do have some technologies from the Type 212, however.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Without even much of foreign collaboration L&T manufactured Arihant class subs. So do not give the excuse of "taken a lot of R&D". Why not give this project to L&T & see how it will deliver the subs on time?

what makes you think there was no foreign collaboration in making arihant class subs. That is the most secretive project the indian military has ever undertaken. Even more so than our ballistic missile program. Very few details are available. India had leased a nuclear sub from russia way back when. And our nuclear reactor used in the sub is based on russian tech. I believe that we collaborated with russians initially in arihant program.

 

[Varaaah]

Only when the child kidnapping government of Germany returns the Indian child back. Else, germans can go to narak.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

You are wrong. Project P75I was supposed to be indigenously build & priority was supposed to be given to private sector. Since MDL failed to absorb the tech in scorpene project ultimately GOI had to go for foreign subs. The GOI is repeating the same mistakes as in scorpene by involving MDL in P75I. Another round of delay, cost escalation & MDL cannot even deliver these even after 2 decades.

go read about project 75I. Foreign OEM was always going to be involved, and nowhere it is written that the shipyard must be private. Most of India's naval ships are built at PSU shipyards. Dont compare PSU shipyards to OFB or HAL, they have very good record.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

If it goes to MDL do not complain when there is increase in taxes since there will be 100% cost escalation due to very very late delivery by MDL.

in modern times (after 2014) contracts are signed before hand, and timelines are fixed. If timelines are not followed, then additional costs are borne by manufacturer.

 

[Pink Panther]

Oh, and the INS Drakon is not a modified Type 212 submarine. It is a heavily enlarged and modified Type 209 submarine. The Batch 2 Dolphin-class do have some technologies from the Type 212, however.

Type-212 underlying design is based on Type-209, but Germans are already making even more enlarged Submarines for Submarines called Dakar Class for Israel that will eventually replace Dolphin Class Submarines, this is based on German Type-216 concept, we should probably get these if we select German Submarine.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Foreign OEM was always going to be involved

If Foreign OEM were to be kept involved, what was the point of TOT? ToT doesn't come free. Vendors charge additional for ToT clause in a contract.

Dont compare PSU shipyards to OFB or HAL, they have very good record.

Sishumar Class Submarines cough!!! cough!!!
Mid life upgrade cough!!! cough!!!
INS Vikrant delay!!! cough!!! cough!!!

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

The 1999 plan called for 18 SSKs and 6 SSNs. This would be made up by 6 Project 75 boats, 6 Project 75I boats, 6 Project 76 boats, and 6 Project 75A boats (the latter being SSNs).

The Navy today is targeting some 24-27 SSKs, which would be made of 9 Kalvaris, 6 Project 75Is, and 9-12 Project 76 boats. SSNs are planned as is.

Where is Project-76 now?
Bahot dinon sei koi eyeing, plans-to, hopes-to, looking-at wali news nahin aa rahi.

 

[Mithu Roy]

Why waste money on importing.start designing our own.slowly will do the catching up.take foreign help in consultation

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Whether that country was willimg to give away its most advanced tech to a 3rd world country.

And what great have we achieved with that advanced technology transferred to us?

Most technicians who were imparted the training for advanced hull welding techniques, ended up with jobs in the Gulf where this technique was in high demand for transport of gas and oil in tankers.

 

[Deepak Hegde]

It's wastage of time & resources, Indian Navy should've considered to invest in:-

1. Additional 3 to 6 Kalvari-SSKs with DRDO's AIP system
2. At least 12 Super-Kalvari SSKs with DRDO's AIP system

This could've allowed Indian shipbuilding industry to have work for almost a decade & for Indian-Navy to get SSKs at a cheaper rate due to Economy of Scales.

Save money on SSKs & invest in SSNs.

If they had this much brains, what else was needed ??

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

And what great have we achieved with that advanced technology transferred to us?

Most technicians who were imparted the training for advanced hull welding techniques, ended up with jobs in the Gulf where this technique was in high demand for transport of gas and oil in tankers.

Who cares if they went away. Great rhing about techniqes is that it is very easy to spread them. We have the technique, we just train new guys. Need just 1 trained guy to demonstrate, videos etc can do the rest