India's AMCA: Why a Powerful Engine is the Key to Dominating the Skies

The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program is India's ticket to owning the future of air combat. At the core of this ambitious project, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) is making bold moves with a next-generation engine that could give the AMCA a decisive edge.

Speed without Sacrifice​

Imagine a fighter jet that can break the sound barrier without burning through its fuel reserves. That's the power of "supercruise", and the GTRE engine aims to do just that with its remarkable dry thrust.

For the AMCA, this translates to lightning-fast response times and the ability to cover huge distances quickly – crucial for both offensive and defensive missions.

Built for India's Challenges​

Heat and dry air – conditions that can limit a jet engine's performance – are a reality for India. The GTRE's design specifically targets this problem. This engine is built to deliver consistent power even in harsh climates, making sure AMCA pilots have the muscle they need, when they need it.

Power to Rival the Best​

This engine isn't just about efficiency; it packs a punch. When afterburners kick in, expect power levels on par with the engines in India's current workhorse, the Su-30MKI. This gives the AMCA the raw force to go head-to-head with the world's best fighter aircraft.

Beyond the AMCA​

The technology powering the AMCA won't stay confined to one program. This engine has the potential to pave the way for India's future 6th-generation fighter jets, ensuring the country stays at the leading edge of aerial combat.

The Path to Self-Reliance​

Success with this engine is about more than just better planes. It's a leap forward for India's aerospace industry, proving the nation's ability to mastermind and build the most sophisticated jet engine technology independently.

 

[Sinan Cagrı Kurt]

The fighter engine tech is probably the most crucial technology that India must have domestically - beg, borrow, steal, buy, make, collaborate, JV and in any/all combinations...But let us benchmark properly - F-35s have 125/191 Kn single engine thrust; F-22 have 116/156 Kn thrust with dual engines (232/312) and NGAD adaptive cycle engines are likely to have 150/200 Kn thrust with dual engines (300/400)...Even if we develop (by 2035 at the earliest, optimistically) a 75/130 Kn engine, we will still be at least 20 years behind the cutting edge (NGADs start flying by 2030)...Important to know where we stand in terms of numbers...I am all for domestic efforts as that is the only long term solution, but would caution against undue optimism or alarmism in our discourse..

F110 from early 80s had similar specifications. More likely 50 years behind cutting edge.

 

[Akshat]

That’s so true. Daam part is particularly important. So far we have only invested peanuts

We have invested as much as the concerned authorities asked for. There was leftover money in the account when they threw their hands up. So throwing more money without changing GTRE is pointless. I know you will ask how much we invested and how much other countries invest etc. But that's pointless when GTRE couldn't even finish what was given to them. So throwing more money without changing GTRE is useless.

 

[Akshat]

Unless and otherwise they produce the Kaveri engine and use it in Tejas the dream of 110 kn engine will remain a dream only

First we need to mass produce the Kaveri engine and ORCA should be a Kaveri twin engine variant of fighter

For that first Kaveri has to work.

 

[Akshat]

GTRE is the single largest non-performing R&D center under DRDO umbrella, even by DRDO's usually lax performance standards, that says a lot about their work culture. They neither have the competence to handle such effort nor do they possess the technical acumen to absorb technology transfer. Better to transfer it directly to private sector companies such as Godrej or Bharat Forge.

Godrej especially has done far admirable job to produce prototypes for Kaveri-2 dry engines and is much better placed to absorb the technology. However give the same to GTRE and watch them procrastinate and sit on it for at least 2-4 years before they start assembling prototypes that repeatedly fail quality control and flunk during trials.

What about ADE?

 

[Akshat]

It will have to be with GTRE as nobody in the country has the knowledge, experience, machinery, technology, advanced metallurgy extraction to develop a engine from the start with a very high cost running into millions. The private sector doesn't either.

Well even GTRE doesn't have that expertise as they haven't made any such engine yet.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

So due to failure one must stop trying things, every thing at start has some issues.

Still not able to select the engine for AMCA mk2 and then delay is going to happen for sure!!

When u do something and fail u don't do the same thing again. Einstein once described madness as doing same thing over and over again only to fail and expect different results. U need to change things and start afresh with a new perspective to succeed.

 

[Akshat]

India has already signed a deal with Safran to develop a brand new engine where India will get 100% of the technology, make it all in India and freely sell it to whoever without needing any permission or any veto given. This will be the best opportunity for India to learn about designing and developing such a advanced technology that's never given 100% at all. We will also need to design and develop the necessary machinery and infrastructure which is essential if we want to become self reliant.

At the same time we have developed the 50kn Kaveri engine which will be used on our indigenous stealth UCAV Ghatak which is showing progress. Also we are developing the Kaveri marine engine which is showing a lot of good progress and can in future power low to medium size naval ships. So we should continue to work on the Kaveri engine and build on that knowledge and expertise at the same time. We should also look at developing different type of engines for missiles like the STFE/Manik which has passed the tests and trials.

India has not signed any such deal. Not yet. The press release after P M's last France visit said the deal is 'expected' to be signed by the end of 2024.

And nothing is Kaveri is working. All DRDO lies. No one outside of Kaveri has ever said that even a bolt used in Kaveri works as intended. All trials (available in public domain) failed and no product has ever used it. DRDO at it's finest.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

What about ADE?

ADE too is right up there in top 5 list but yet to reach the top. After all to compete with GTRE to take the crown of being the single most inefficient agency under DRDO takes some time to chart up a record. But I am pretty sure they will eventually get there.

 

[Akshat]

I highly doubtful on this one before 2035... US engines is still more powerful and efficient, next is the typhoon consortium with Rolls Royce in efficiency but a bit lack in power, Russian drunkard's engines are almost comparable to US engines power but fuel hungry and not efficient. It serves it's purpose mostly in cheaper way... Next is Chinese chingchongs engine same as Russian ones but more cheaper and not efficient and worse in some ways than the Russian 😹😹😹 the only one is in last row is France m88 dang it, why on earth they have a good engine in CFM JV but can't innovate its own m88 engine upgrades 🤔🧐....

GTRE can do this in fast way just go and grab the offering joint collaboration with foreign countries and develop a clean sheet design that will be own by GTRE India

Actually French engines are far more advanced than you imagine. Check their factors like thrust to dry weight etc. Also, while Safran has often proposed more powerful engines, French airforce simply has refused since Rafale works just fine with the current engines.

As for RR. They actually are not anywhere close to number 2. In the EF engine, they only had 33% share of development. The compressor portion, which is where even India lacked, is their biggest weakness. This part was developed by Germany and Italy as RR failed to do it. Even for Ador engines, France delivered the compressors as RR can't do it (even though the compressors have been blamed for certain recent issues in the engines). This shows that RR simply isn't capable of making the engines on it's own. Only US, France, Russia and China can currently make the entire engine on their own. Out of these, while France lacks the thrust, their engines perform exceptionally well on reliability and efficiency. US is of course the leader across all factors.

 

[Akshat]

Our year is 2024 currently.... 6gen aircraft demonstration will be showing up in 2035 with a working ready for pre production aircraft that is touted to have a new engine....

So we already have 10 yrs and 7 month timeline of waiting if GTRE project will bear a fruit... Im laughing right now because this should be a big pressure for them

This engine has to be used on AMCA Mk2. This means ADA-HAL have to deliver AMCA Mk1 first. So GTRE can take their time. We all know that there is no way AMCA is coming online before 2045, at the earliest.

 

[Akshat]

ADE too is right up there in top 5 list but yet to reach the top. After all to compete with GTRE to take the crown of being the single most inefficient agency under DRDO takes some time to chart up a record. But I am pretty sure they will eventually get there.

Well just like GTRE they too have not made anything that can be used. In fact, at least GTRE is working on a high end product. ADE is doing more of an assembly and code writing job.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Well just like GTRE they too have not made anything that can be used. In fact, at least GTRE is working on a high end product. ADE is doing more of an assembly and code writing job.

The thing is while ADE may be accused of being inept and inefficient, they are yet to reach the level of skullduggery exhibited by GTRE in past. GTRE is not just inefficient, but is dishonest liar.

 

[Akshat]

The thing is while ADE may be accused of being inept and inefficient, they are yet to reach the level of skullduggery exhibited by GTRE in past. GTRE is not just inefficient, but is dishonest liar.

Probably. I mean, we are comparing who is the bigger zero out of the 2. So sure.

 

[Avesh]

and why would they help - US, Soviets/Russians, French, UK and China have all done it themselves.. obviously there has been inspiration and theft, thus we must do whatever it takes to master fighter engine technology...

we already worked with 15 foreign engines till now, but never learned anything, where as all he Countries who makes engines now learned from German engine tech after World war 2.

 

[Pad UwU]

This engine has to be used on AMCA Mk2. This means ADA-HAL have to deliver AMCA Mk1 first. So GTRE can take their time. We all know that there is no way AMCA is coming online before 2045, at the earliest.

Yes same idea too... But dang to many -HAL fanboys and self proclaime insider writers saying in other articles AMCA will be shown as mk2 ready version for manufacturing....
Wadafaq are they keep on dreaming high on drugs when AMCA prototype is no where near to seen around neither a mk1 in fantasy 😹😹😹

 

[Pad UwU]

Actually French engines are far more advanced than you imagine. Check their factors like thrust to dry weight etc. Also, while Safran has often proposed more powerful engines, French airforce simply has refused since Rafale works just fine with the current engines.

As for RR. They actually are not anywhere close to number 2. In the EF engine, they only had 33% share of development. The compressor portion, which is where even India lacked, is their biggest weakness. This part was developed by Germany and Italy as RR failed to do it. Even for Ador engines, France delivered the compressors as RR can't do it (even though the compressors have been blamed for certain recent issues in the engines). This shows that RR simply isn't capable of making the engines on it's own. Only US, France, Russia and China can currently make the entire engine on their own. Out of these, while France lacks the thrust, their engines perform exceptionally well on reliability and efficiency. US is of course the leader across all factors.

I can't process your saying if Safran is advance why not sell it's engine to interested buyer if you're claim of their oh so called advance tech as seem like your pointing out like they are no.2 in engine world 🧐🤔...
I only believe it if they produce it in real world....
RR on other hand is simply up and down company, they should long time ago let be absorbed by BAE systems and be merge to BAE's MTU engine division as one big a hella European engine maker than hindering themselves because they are just a small engine company...
But I'm hoping if in the future GE and Rolls Royce merge instead because GE faqup themselves in civilian aviation engine 😹😹😹
Pratt and Whitney is winning it's market share's while some are going to RR islets not enough

 

[Pad UwU]

Actually French engines are far more advanced than you imagine. Check their factors like thrust to dry weight etc. Also, while Safran has often proposed more powerful engines, French airforce simply has refused since Rafale works just fine with the current engines.

As for RR. They actually are not anywhere close to number 2. In the EF engine, they only had 33% share of development. The compressor portion, which is where even India lacked, is their biggest weakness. This part was developed by Germany and Italy as RR failed to do it. Even for Ador engines, France delivered the compressors as RR can't do it (even though the compressors have been blamed for certain recent issues in the engines). This shows that RR simply isn't capable of making the engines on it's own. Only US, France, Russia and China can currently make the entire engine on their own. Out of these, while France lacks the thrust, their engines perform exceptionally well on reliability and efficiency. US is of course the leader across all factors.

If Safran is superior where's the data of their superior engine tech ???🧐🤔
Then where the RR claims of yours as failure 😺....
It's hard for anyone and any other hear to believe in some of your claims.... That's I only believe half your info only as long some are backing what your saying bruh😁👍

 

[beencensured]

The fighter engine tech is probably the most crucial technology that India must have domestically - beg, borrow, steal, buy, make, collaborate, JV and in any/all combinations...But let us benchmark properly - F-35s have 125/191 Kn single engine thrust; F-22 have 116/156 Kn thrust with dual engines (232/312) and NGAD adaptive cycle engines are likely to have 150/200 Kn thrust with dual engines (300/400)...Even if we develop (by 2035 at the earliest, optimistically) a 75/130 Kn engine, we will still be at least 20 years behind the cutting edge (NGADs start flying by 2030)...Important to know where we stand in terms of numbers...I am all for domestic efforts as that is the only long term solution, but would caution against undue optimism or alarmism in our discourse..

This is wrong approach as we should work on all classes of engines from cutting edge, from less powerful to most powerful. No telling where the break through will be had, but it activates a system of both R&D and incorporating latest technology. What if we find a new super alloys/composite material/ ceramic/ and so on that can handle higher trust, then India can move to next level and compete.

 

[Akshat]

If Safran is superior where's the data of their superior engine tech ???🧐🤔
Then where the RR claims of yours as failure 😺....
It's hard for anyone and any other hear to believe in some of your claims.... That's I only believe half your info only as long some are backing what your saying bruh😁👍

Eurojets own site has the date of RR's failure. It gives the exact workshare agreement. Similarly, you can check the dry thrust by weight ration of M88 vs say F404 if you wanna compare.

The info I give is always fool proof and backed by sources. There are many others who fail to provide sources, especially the French haters on this site.

 

[Akshat]

I can't process your saying if Safran is advance why not sell it's engine to interested buyer if you're claim of their oh so called advance tech as seem like your pointing out like they are no.2 in engine world 🧐🤔...
I only believe it if they produce it in real world....
RR on other hand is simply up and down company, they should long time ago let be absorbed by BAE systems and be merge to BAE's MTU engine division as one big a hella European engine maker than hindering themselves because they are just a small engine company...
But I'm hoping if in the future GE and Rolls Royce merge instead because GE faqup themselves in civilian aviation engine 😹😹😹
Pratt and Whitney is winning it's market share's while some are going to RR islets not enough

Only an amateur will say "Hey this is number 1 or this is number 2 in jet engines". I expected more from you. You can't compare Toyota with Maruti and say Maruti is better because they sell more cars. Toyota is more known for reliability and Maruti for cheap cars.

Coming to RR. They are absolutely useless. Even for Adour engines they have to import compressors. You can go and check on Eurojets own website. Workshare is listed there.

As for Safran. They make what is needed by France. Dassault needs a 75 kN engine, and it is made by them. Dassault now is making a 6th gen plane, and Safran is making an engine for it. India is asking for an engine, and they are ready. India asked for help with Kaveri, they gave it. The cost of the entire project though turned out to be way too much for us. Now US surely is number 1, no doubt. In almost every parameter. But after that, China and Russia do have higher thrust engines. But France has more reliable engines. But the fact is, Russia and China have tried to increase reliability but failed. But France hasn't tried high thrust engines. They will do that with the 6th gen planes (in collab with others, of course). RR is not even in the top 4 when it comes to engines as they simply cannot make an entire engine on their own. Not even an engine from the 60s.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

The private sector doesn't either.

You are so wrong about that, birader.
There are private players specializing in manufacturing of small turbo-jet engines in India.
Furthermore major players like Kirlosakars and Godrej have enough huamn capital to develop jet engines.

Point is, is the GoI ready to hand out carrots?
So far, they are busy pouring more money into non-performance without anybody getting penalised for bad work.

 

[RG]

India has access to 130KN class engine, and it should in first iteration focus on using proven tech and design to have this class of engine. Beg, borrow and steal has been done by others to develop their own tech, why should it be anything different. It should involve partners and private industry who can help in refining individual parts and components to reduce time and cycle. Flying test bed is must. it would be beneficial to start off shoots of whatever success is achieved rather than considering the target only as a measure of success or failure.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Probably. I mean, we are comparing who is the bigger zero out of the 2. So sure.

Its like both ADE and GTRE are fail candidates in school. While one (ADE) is just an abject failure who gets whacked from his parents regularly for shoddy performance in report card, the other (GTRE), not just fails in exams but goes one step ahead to forge parent signatures and misreport his grades, only to be found during parent--teachers meeting and would be doubly punished for failure and forgery.

 

[Akshat]

we already worked with 15 foreign engines till now, but never learned anything, where as all he Countries who makes engines now learned from German engine tech after World war 2.

And the same thing will be repeated if you give this project to GTRE/HAL.

 

[Akshat]

This is wrong approach as we should work on all classes of engines from cutting edge, from less powerful to most powerful. No telling where the break through will be had, but it activates a system of both R&D and incorporating latest technology. What if we find a new super alloys/composite material/ ceramic/ and so on that can handle higher trust, then India can move to next level and compete.

You don’t just ‘find’ stuff. It needs billions of computations and thousands of carefully crafted experiments.

 

[beencensured]

You don’t just ‘find’ stuff. It needs billions of computations and thousands of carefully crafted experiments.

Age of petaflops and exaflops, and the we have you.

 

[Rajesh]

What ever they make for amca should have the potential to be upgraded to 150 kn which can be used for su-30 replacement program.

 

[Rajesh]

So due to failure one must stop trying things, every thing at start has some issues.

Still not able to select the engine for AMCA mk2 and then delay is going to happen for sure!!

Then only import from France can happen and their proxies can make money . For some drdo should shut rather than rectifying the problem and moving on so imports can happen without an option.

 

[Akshat]

Age of petaflops and exaflops, and the we have you.

Shows how much research you have done irl. Petaflops and all don’t work on their own. You need to do real life calculations first and input them as parameters. Only after that’s done can you expect the computers to do their job.

 

[Pad UwU]

Only an amateur will say "Hey this is number 1 or this is number 2 in jet engines". I expected more from you. You can't compare Toyota with Maruti and say Maruti is better because they sell more cars. Toyota is more known for reliability and Maruti for cheap cars.

Coming to RR. They are absolutely useless. Even for Adour engines they have to import compressors. You can go and check on Eurojets own website. Workshare is listed there.

As for Safran. They make what is needed by France. Dassault needs a 75 kN engine, and it is made by them. Dassault now is making a 6th gen plane, and Safran is making an engine for it. India is asking for an engine, and they are ready. India asked for help with Kaveri, they gave it. The cost of the entire project though turned out to be way too much for us. Now US surely is number 1, no doubt. In almost every parameter. But after that, China and Russia do have higher thrust engines. But France has more reliable engines. But the fact is, Russia and China have tried to increase reliability but failed. But France hasn't tried high thrust engines. They will do that with the 6th gen planes (in collab with others, of course). RR is not even in the top 4 when it comes to engines as they simply cannot make an entire engine on their own. Not even an engine from the 60s.

No, how can I and others would believe that RR is useless when the company is still standing still🧐🤔... Adour engine is old design AFAIK we also manufacturing it with Indian variant...
About Safran, you spouting that they reliable 😁
Now send us a proper comparison of each engines reliability... PS don't compare old adour to current m88...
Just give true not bias data of
Ej200 vs m88... Doesn't matter if RR only 1/3 contribution on the ej200