India's Rafale M Poised to Outperform Chinese Reverse-Engineered J-15 in Key Combat Metrics as Design Flaws Persist in PLAAN's Carrier-Based Fighter

India's acquisition of the Rafale M naval fighter jet is poised to give the Indian Navy a significant edge over China's carrier-based aircraft, according to an Indian Navy official.

In a candid assessment, the official stated that the Rafale M significantly outclasses China's modernized J-15B and J-15D fighters in all key combat capabilities.

The Rafale M, a naval variant of the renowned French Rafale fighter, is purpose-built for carrier operations. It boasts advanced avionics, weaponry, and a robust airframe designed to withstand the rigors of naval combat.

In contrast, the J-15B and J-15D, derivatives of the Soviet-era Sukhoi Su-33, continue to grapple with inherited design flaws despite significant Chinese investment in modernization.

"The J-15 series, despite its upgrades, carries the legacy of the Su-33's problems, which have been well-documented," the official noted. "These include issues with the aircraft's weight, fuel efficiency, and operational reliability."

The J-15 was reverse-engineered and modified from a prototype of the Su-33 acquired from Ukraine. However, fundamental design challenges persist, impacting its overall combat effectiveness.

The official highlighted that India's decision to opt for the MiG-29K over the Su-33 for its aircraft carriers was influenced by similar reliability and performance concerns that even the Russian Navy faced. The Russian Navy's eventual transition from the Su-33 to the MiG-29K further underscores the unresolved problems with the former.

China has acknowledged these shortcomings and is now developing the J-35, a fifth-generation carrier-based fighter, with the aim of phasing out the J-15 variants. The J-35 is expected to bring stealth capabilities, enhanced avionics, and superior combat performance to the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).

However, despite the J-35's development, the PLAN continues to induct J-15B and J-15D aircraft, highlighting their continued efforts to expanding their naval aviation capabilities. These jets, however, still carry the design limitations of the Su-33, hindering their effectiveness against modern adversaries like the Rafale M.

The Rafale M's superiority in areas such as radar, electronic warfare, payload capacity, and operational range provides the Indian Navy with a strategic advantage in potential naval engagements. Its compatibility with India's aircraft carriers, coupled with its proven combat record in various international operations, positions it as a formidable asset in the region.

 

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[Hari Sud]

Dream on China…. There is nothing available for you copy or reverse engineered stuff.

 

[sanket]

Chinese Jets have Full of short comings but yet they are happy in Inducting

 

[Mango_Indian]

The Rafale M will cost 3- 5X the cost of any contemporary Chinese aircraft

Coming to the real question- how much will the 26 Rafale M’s cost ? My take, near $ 10 Billion. How they are going to justify this pricing to the Indian junta will be interesting. India specific changes are done.

 

[Mango_Indian]

Chinese Jets have Full of short comings but yet they are happy in Inducting

Compare with IAF. Flying 125 Mig 21 Bis, short of 17 odd squadrons but nothing short of Rafale is acceptable.

And they are married to HAL - producing 2 legacy Tejas per year in a good year.

 

[Anant]

Correction to be made here: The Russian Navy's decision to move away from the MiG-29K had less to do with problems with the Su-33 and more to do with India's decision to get the MIG-29K.

Understanding the genesis of the two aircraft types is key here. Both the Su-33 and the MIG-29K were originally developed for what was then planned to be the Soviet carrier fleet, which, in the early 1980s, was planned to eventually comprise six ships: Kuznetsov (then known as Tbilisi), her sister ship Riga (today the Liaoning), the two mid-sized nuclear carriers of the Ulyanovsk-class, and a planned class of two nuclear supercarriers, all of which would be in service by 2005-08.

The Soviets preferred the Su-27K (later to be re-designated as the Su-33) at the time, but they wanted to continue both projects to emulate the high-low doctrine of the Soviet Air Force. However, once the USSR collapsed and it became clear the Russians were only going to have one proper carrier and four cruiser-carrier hybrids, the Russian Navy decided to only proceed with the Su-33. Mikoyan, however, continued work on the design with the hopes of getting an improved land-based variant (what would eventually become the MiG-29M).

However, the revival for the program came in 2004, when India ordered 16, and then a further 29, MiG-29Ks for the to-be INS Vikramaditya. The Su-33 was considered, but was very quickly rejected due to the large size (which would hamper operations on the smaller Vikramaditya) as well as problems with the type in Russian service.

Russia Was also looking for a complement to the Su-33 by this point, and with the Indian order, it was decided to scrap a proposed upgrade called the Su-33M, and instead proceed with the modernised MiG-29K. This also meany cost savings, as they wouldn't have to divert an entire production line for the Su-33 for what was planned to be 18 jets. The cost savings also allowed the Russian Navy to increase their procurement to 24 jets. Eventually, they would procure another 24 jets for shore-based use.

That said, though, both types have shown to be rather problematic at times.

 

[Anant]

The Rafale M will cost 3- 5X the cost of any contemporary Chinese aircraft

Coming to the real question- how much will the 26 Rafale M’s cost ? My take, near $ 10 Billion. How they are going to justify this pricing to the Indian junta will be interesting. India specific changes are done.

From what is being reported, the entire deal for 26 Rafale Ms and the three additional Scorpene mod submarines will cost around 10 billion USD. Considering that the Scorpene mod deal has been reported to be about 4.5 billion USD, that means the Rafales would be about 5.5 billion USD.

 

[Anant]

Compare with IAF. Flying 125 Mig 21 Bis, short of 17 odd squadrons but nothing short of Rafale is acceptable.

And they are married to HAL - producing 2 legacy Tejas per year in a good year.

Um, the IAF has about 40 MiG-21s in active service, plus a few dozen more in reserve. We haven't had 125 MiG-21s in service for a few years now.

 

[Instant Karma]

Chinese fighters are far more superior than any of the western countries fighters because of their being made locally and cost very cheap. In case of a war like between Ukraine and Russia happening between India and China, Chinese Army can sustain the war for a very very long time. Indian defence forces will succumb to supply chain disruption because of most weapons are of western origin. Chinese defense forces will be able to cut down the Indian defence forces into numerous pockets due to running out of ammunition by Indian Army. The only saving point will be if Indian navy can block the sea route for Chinese vessels in the Indian Ocean.

 

[R. Singh]

We may not lead in numbers against China but we must take lead in Technology ! We must operate Rafale-M, F-35B from our carriers and later on TEDBF and AMCA-N (STOVL) !

 

[FIDA INDIA]

Dream on China…. There is nothing available for you copy or reverse engineered stuff.

The Chinese work for their bosses to get pay and positions. Bosses work for their bosses. And the top bosses still sack defense minister or defense chief every quarter. In such situations they can only copy and reverse engineer. Their wepon is propaganda on themselves and others. For 2000 years their strategy is deception, internally and externally. Things will fall apart soon.

 

[Kiran Kumar]

Don't try to fool Indian people. Chinese have bulk numbers and if they come with 50-60 J-15/B then how can you counter them with just 26 Rafael's. Here, numbers matter and the who have more numbers will eventually win as it is not possible for to counter all of them

 

[FIDA INDIA]

Chinese fighters are far more superior than any of the western countries fighters because of their being made locally and cost very cheap. In case of a war like between Ukraine and Russia happening between India and China, Chinese Army can sustain the war for a very very long time. Indian defence forces will succumb to supply chain disruption because of most weapons are of western origin. Chinese defense forces will be able to cut down the Indian defence forces into numerous pockets due to running out of ammunition by Indian Army. The only saving point will be if Indian navy can block the sea route for Chinese vessels in the Indian Ocean.

China can sustain more than India? Currently they are not able to sustain themselves. Multiple stimulus packages have failed. They are repeatedly failing for many years. Yes we can choke them in Malacca straits in one hour.

 

[Mango_Indian]

Um, the IAF has about 40 MiG-21s in active service, plus a few dozen more in reserve. We haven't had 125 MiG-21s in service for a few years now.

Don't go with Wikipedia numbers - all 125 MiG 21 Bis are still in active service. Do the reverse math - 30 active fighter aircraft squadrons with IAF, do the Wiki numbers add up to 30X18 = 540? No, right?

Retirement for the MiG21 Bis is delayed due to the Tejas Mk1A production delays.

 

[Rinku Pandey]

Whatever may be the cost of Rafale M but there is no other option. Question in my mind is wether Aircraft carriers are relevant today? It costs around $10 billion for one all inclusive for small carriers which Bharat has.

 

[swatkats_razor]

Whatever may be the cost of Rafale M but there is no other option. Question in my mind is wether Aircraft carriers are relevant today? It costs around $10 billion for one all inclusive for small carriers which Bharat has.

Aircraft carriers are means of power-projection.

They are a piece of sovereign Indian land on the seas. When INS Vikrant port calls on a port in the Philippines, it is a piece of India physically relocating to the sea of Philippines.

An attack on INS Vikrant is an attack on Indian land and would evoke a similar response.

Is it worth it?

Well, if we intend to claim our seat at the high-chairs, we need to have the power-projection flexibility that only an Aircraft Carrier can offer.

 

[INDIAN]

Compare with IAF. Flying 125 Mig 21 Bis, short of 17 odd squadrons but nothing short of Rafale is acceptable.

And they are married to HAL - producing 2 legacy Tejas per year in a good year.

it is because Biden is arm twisting India by not supplying the engines agreed

 

[Akshat]

it is because Biden is arm twisting India by not supplying the engines agreed

Oh engines are the least of our problems. As the IAF chief recently said, even the original 40 planes, for which engines were delivered way back in 2020, including spare engines, have not been delivered even till now. So engines are not our problem, HAL is.

 

[Akshat]

Whatever may be the cost of Rafale M but there is no other option. Question in my mind is wether Aircraft carriers are relevant today? It costs around $10 billion for one all inclusive for small carriers which Bharat has.

Oh their cost is more than justified and they are relevant not just today but for decades to come. If anything, they are more relevant today then ever before in entire history. That's why almost every nation which can manage a carrier is buying a carrier - from China to South Korea to Japan, and US to UK to France, and India of course.

 

[Sandeep]

It’s absolutely clear that the Rafale’s equipment and technology is much better, reliable, effective, dependable and it functions and does what it’s supposed.

The Chinese junk fighter is the exact opposite as its technology and equipment is unreliable, doesn’t work properly, has many errors and isn’t able to perform like they claim it can do. Also its weapons range, infrared and seekers can’t lock onto a target properly, can easily be evaded by chaff or flares and its missiles engine speed is too slow at times to intercept a jet with faster and modern day jet engines.

 

[Anant]

Don't go with Wikipedia numbers - all 125 MiG 21 Bis are still in active service. Do the reverse math - 30 active fighter aircraft squadrons with IAF, do the Wiki numbers add up to 30X18 = 540? No, right?

Retirement for the MiG21 Bis is delayed due to the Tejas Mk1A production delays.

You want the math? Fine, so here goes:

1. There are 13 Su-30MKI squadrons (Nos. 2, 4, 8, 15, 20, 24, 30, 31, 102, 106, 220, 221, and 222 Squadrons).

2. There are 6 Jaguar squadrons (Nos. 5, 6, 14, 16, 27, and 224 Squadrons).

3. There are 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons (Nos. 1, 7, and 9 Sqaudrons).

4. There are 3 MiG-29 squadrons (Nos. 28, 47, and 223 Squadrons).

5. There are 2 Tejas squadrons (Nos. 17, and 45 Squadrons).

6. There are 2 Rafale squadrons (Nos. 17, and 101 Squadrons).

7. There are 2 MiG-21 squadrons (Nos. 3, and 23 Squadrons).

That adds up to 31 squadrons. In terms of aircraft numbers, we have 259 Su-30MKIs overall, 115 Jaguars, 47 Mirage 2000s, 59 MiG-29s, 35 Tejas, 36 Rafales, and 40 MiG-21s in service, including trainers. That comes to a total of 591 fighters.

Oh, and I am not using Wikipedia numbers. I am using OSINT figures coupled with the figures given by the IAF themselves. Are you calling the IAF liars?

As for the MiG-21 retirement, it was supposed to, after multiple delays, be concluded by 2025. Thanks for GE's issues and HAL's incompetence, we have had to push the retirement of these last two squadrons to 2026.

 

[bonito]

Oh engines are the least of our problems. As the IAF chief recently said, even the original 40 planes, for which engines were delivered way back in 2020, including spare engines, have not been delivered even till now. So engines are not our problem, HAL is.

Atlast chief told the same I have voicing this for last 1 year. There is 33 GE404 engines in inventory.

it is really scary HAL is not open with its issues and neither we don't see them taking actions to resolve while they sit idle with those engines

 

[abhinav srivastava]

In next 5-10 years they will have J35's naval variant.

 

[Akshat]

Atlast chief told the same I have voicing this for last 1 year. There is 33 GE404 engines in inventory.

it is really scary HAL is not open with its issues and neither we don't see them taking actions to resolve while they sit idle with those engines

So there is something interesting here. While Indian does have extra engines, the spare ones are all with IAF, not with HAL. They are for maintenance etc., and some of them might not be brand new as they might have been used and replaced by IAF during regular maintenance. In reality, there are very few fresh engines. And any such engines beyond the 40 meant for the first 40 jets (and the relevant number of spare engines which haven't been delivered yet to IAF as they will be delivered when the delivery of the remaining jets will happen) can't be used by HAL, at least not without permission of IAF and MoD. They will have to buy them back from the IAF, and IAF will have to undertake a number of decisions to do any such thing.

However, they do have enough fresh (aka brand new) engines to make at least the original 40 planes. So those jets at the very least must have been supplied to IAF which is something HAL hasn't done so far.

 

[Arin Kumar]

You want the math? Fine, so here goes:

1. There are 13 Su-30MKI squadrons (Nos. 2, 4, 8, 15, 20, 24, 30, 31, 102, 106, 220, 221, and 222 Squadrons).

2. There are 6 Jaguar squadrons (Nos. 5, 6, 14, 16, 27, and 224 Squadrons).

3. There are 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons (Nos. 1, 7, and 9 Sqaudrons).

4. There are 3 MiG-29 squadrons (Nos. 28, 47, and 223 Squadrons).

5. There are 2 Tejas squadrons (Nos. 17, and 45 Squadrons).

6. There are 2 Rafale squadrons (Nos. 17, and 101 Squadrons).

7. There are 2 MiG-21 squadrons (Nos. 3, and 23 Squadrons).

That adds up to 31 squadrons. In terms of aircraft numbers, we have 259 Su-30MKIs overall, 115 Jaguars, 47 Mirage 2000s, 59 MiG-29s, 35 Tejas, 36 Rafales, and 40 MiG-21s in service, including trainers. That comes to a total of 591 fighters.

Oh, and I am not using Wikipedia numbers. I am using OSINT figures coupled with the figures given by the IAF themselves. Are you calling the IAF liars?

As for the MiG-21 retirement, it was supposed to, after multiple delays, be concluded by 2025. Thanks for GE's issues and HAL's incompetence, we have had to push the retirement of these last two squadrons to 2026.

Consider the Jaguar and Mig21 squadrons to be ZERO.

Because in modern day warfare they are useless junk.

So we basically have -> (31-8) ~ 23 squadrons.

Besides Mig 29 and Su 30 MKI keep crashing from time to time every 1-2 years.

So it is safe to assume our squadron strength to be 22.

Our Airforce demands 50 Squadrons .