Russia Eyes Return to Project 75I Collaboration with India, Offers Amur 1650 Submarine with 80% Localization and AIP Tech

In a surprising turn of events, Russia has expressed renewed interest in collaborating with India on its ambitious Project 75I submarine program. Igor V. Vilnit, CEO of Rubin Design Bureau, the Russian submarine design firm, recently stated their willingness to partner with Indian industry and the Navy, aligning with India's "Make in India" and "Self-Reliant India" initiatives.

This announcement comes after Russia withdrew from the Project 75I tender in 2022. At the time, Russian officials cited the project's stringent terms and conditions, particularly the demanding timelines and high degree of responsibility placed on the designer, as reasons for their withdrawal.

The estimated cost of the project, which aims to build six advanced submarines for the Indian Navy, is over ₹40,000 crore.

Despite the previous withdrawal, Russia now appears eager to re-engage with the program. They are proposing the Amur 1650, a diesel-electric submarine designed for targeting enemy surface ships and submarines, as the platform for collaboration. Russia has offered to incorporate a high degree of localization, up to 80%, in the construction of these submarines in India.

The Amur 1650 can be equipped with an Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, significantly extending its underwater endurance. While Russia initially offered a version without a tested AIP system, they later expressed willingness to integrate India's indigenously developed DRDO AIP system if the proposal was accepted.

This renewed interest from Russia adds another dimension to Project 75I. While the Indian Navy has reportedly selected Germany's TKMS and their U-214 submarine for the project, Russia's offer of the Amur 1650 with high localization and potential integration of the indigenous AIP system could be a compelling proposition. It remains to be seen how the Indian Navy will respond to this latest development and how it will impact the future of Project 75I.

This potential collaboration could represent a significant step in Indo-Russian defence cooperation, combining Russia's extensive experience in submarine design and technology with India's growing manufacturing capabilities.

 

[Anant]

Yeah... namaste to Russia.

Here is Russia's track record of AIP systems and recent SSK development:

1. Russia has never developed an AIP submarine.

2. Russia has never developed an AIP system.

3. Russia has become so bad at developing new submarines that a brand new diesel-electric boat (the Sankt Peterburg, lead ship of the Lada-class) was found to have so many problems that she was decommissioned after 3-4 years of active service (and a 23 year building period followed by a decade of working up and being fixed) and slated for scrapping.

Yeah, let them keep building modernised Kilos and selling them to others. We do not want their marginal assistance.

 

[MANIVANNAN N]

But full cooperation up to 80% local content no body will offer except russia. Rubin design bureau hugely supported indian nuke sub. That also nobody will give.

 

[sanket]

oh German TKMS offer for U-214 have been selected that means spanish is out of contention

 

[abhinav srivastava]

They are facing a war. They can buy tanks/hoeitzers from us as a barter trade.

 

[Akshat]

But full cooperation up to 80% local content no body will offer except russia. Rubin design bureau hugely supported indian nuke sub. That also nobody will give.

But for that Russia should have the requisite technology. No thanks.

 

[PKPRS]

Yeah... namaste to Russia.

Here is Russia's track record of AIP systems and recent SSK development:

1. Russia has never developed an AIP submarine.

2. Russia has never developed an AIP system.

3. Russia has become so bad at developing new submarines that a brand new diesel-electric boat (the Sankt Peterburg, lead ship of the Lada-class) was found to have so many problems that she was decommissioned after 3-4 years of active service (and a 23 year building period followed by a decade of working up and being fixed) and slated for scrapping.

Yeah, let them keep building modernised Kilos and selling them to others. We do not want their marginal assistance.

Probably you didn't read the article right, they are OK with incorporating DRDO's AIP in AMUR, like how French are doing in the 3 new Scorpene's that India is buying albeit for much cheaper, it would be better if it is LADA Class.

 

[Anant]

Probably you didn't read the article right, they are OK with incorporating DRDO's AIP in AMUR, like how French are doing in the 3 new Scorpene's that India is buying albeit for much cheaper, it would be better if it is LADA Class.

Boss, the AIP system is only one part of the problem. The larger problem is that they have nothing more than a modernised-ish Kilo-class hull to offer.

The Lada-class are interesting boats to say the least, but the Sankt Peterburg's fate doesn't inspire much confidence. The Amur-class also doesn't exist at all. If you want a clean sheet design regardless, just go with Project 76. The timelines will be similar.

 

[PKPRS]

Boss, the AIP system is only one part of the problem. The larger problem is that they have nothing more than a modernised-ish Kilo-class hull to offer.

The Lada-class are interesting boats to say the least, but the Sankt Peterburg's fate doesn't inspire much confidence. The Amur-class also doesn't exist at all. If you want a clean sheet design regardless, just go with Project 76. The timelines will be similar.

if DRDO's AIP is a problem then why are we buying 3 new Scorpenes and asking French to fit DRDO's AIP in them, yes AMUR class is modernized Kilo Class SUB but it has improved acoustic stealth, new combat systems also has VLS capable of salvo-fire at multiple predesignated targets.

 

[Dredd]

if DRDO's AIP is a problem then why are we buying 3 new Scorpenes and asking French to fit DRDO's AIP in them, yes AMUR class is modernized Kilo Class SUB but it has improved acoustic stealth, new combat systems also has VLS capable of salvo-fire at multiple predesignated targets.

DRDO AIP is not a problem, Amur class Submarine platform is a problem, Scorpene class does come up with AIP offering, albeit the one which IN doesn't want, so replacing the AIP will not change the overall design. While for Amur AIP will be a completly new integration and platform itself is having technical issues. It's not smart to trust russian claims before testing and verifying.

 

[k2b2]

we need big submarine.

 

[PKPRS]

DRDO AIP is not a problem, Amur class Submarine platform is a problem, Scorpene class does come up with AIP offering, albeit the one which IN doesn't want, so replacing the AIP will not change the overall design. While for Amur AIP will be a completly new integration and platform itself is having technical issues. It's not smart to trust russian claims before testing and verifying.

AMUR is basically a modernized Kalvari class Submarine that our Navy already operates, so as Scorpene, it didn't have an option for AIP before.

 

[PKPRS]

we need big submarine.

Then LADA class is the best bet.

 

[Double Tap]

Yeah, let them keep building modernised Kilos and selling them to others. We do not want their marginal assistance.

can other foreign submarines use brahmos missiles ? NO

 

[Anant]

can other foreign submarines use brahmos missiles ? NO

And neither can this design without a massive VLS compartment. Oh, and if you think you can manage a VLS compartment and an AIP systen on a submarine displacing 1,650 tons (about the size of a non-AIP Scorpene), you'll end up with an exceptionally cramped ship. If you have ever visited INS Kursura in Visakhapatnam, you'll know how cramped submarines can get. Kursura is both larger and doesn't have VLS or AIP, though she does have massive battery packs.

 

[Anant]

if DRDO's AIP is a problem then why are we buying 3 new Scorpenes and asking French to fit DRDO's AIP in them, yes AMUR class is modernized Kilo Class SUB but it has improved acoustic stealth, new combat systems also has VLS capable of salvo-fire at multiple predesignated targets.

1. The Kilo-class was an exceptional design for the 1980s, and even the modernised Kilo-class (Project 636.3) boats are decent today. However, they are an aging design, and are no longer at the cutting edge.

2. The Russian proposal is the Amur 1650, which weighs 1,650 tons. Try fitting in a VLS compartment and AIP system on a boat of that displacement, and what you'll get is either an exceptionally cramped oceanic submarine, or a glorified coastal submarine with AIP and VLS. For reference, our Kalvari / Scorpene-class boats displacement about as much, and have neither a VLS nor a AIP module (yet). Oh, and in case you don't know how cramped submarines can get, go and visit a submarine museum. Kursura in Visakhapatnam is an excellent example, and that submarine is about 300 tons heavier and considerably larger.

3. The Russians have shown they have problems even with a modernised version of the Kilo-class. The Lada-class was supposed to be this new class, and the lead ship spent 23 years being built, 10 years working up to operational status, then spent less than 3 years in active service, and is now awaiting scrapping. That is a monumental waste, and considering just how long other boats in the class are taking to build, this shows Russia is not able to develop truly new designs.

 

[Anant]

Then LADA class is the best bet.

Yes, let's get a design that doesn't work, where the lead ship spent 23 years getting built, 10 years working up to operational status, and then spent less than 3 years in active service before being condemned as scrap. Let's get the class where submarines are being built at a pace that can make MDL look like Usain Bolt, and let's get the class where the production run is curtailed in favour of an older design that seems to be easier, cheaper and faster to build, and better overall.

Any other ideas along these lines?

 

[Anant]

AMUR is basically a modernized Kalvari class Submarine that our Navy already operates, so as Scorpene, it didn't have an option for AIP before.

Amur is a modernised Kalvari? I take it you mean the Amur is a modernised Kilo-class instead?

Regardless, it is a modernised version of a hull design dating back to the 1970s. Oh, and it's a cramped version of that hull design, where some imbecile has come up with the idea of fitting a VLS and AIP compartment in.

 

[NSR]

Not sure about P-75I at all as the train left the station.
But perhaps definitely for Indian Navy WDB designed P-76 SSK Submarine if they need some critical technologies or manufacturing know how.

 

[desigandu]

Russia will no longer be Bharat’s partner for any major weapon systems in the future, unless major changes in geopolitics…Russia is today in Chinas camp for its survival…But Bharat can continue the managed decline and keep buying cheap energy and resources…

In any case Bharat must become atmanirbhar by 2035…

 

[Sandeep]

Until Russia has fully developed and tested a submarine's technology, capabilities and is in active service then India should ignore whatever design on paper they are showing us. We need to test a submarine completely before buying it or offering advance money to help Russia to develop the submarine with no guarantees that it can perform to the high standards that Russia was claiming that the submarine can do.

 

[R. Singh]

No ! We should make TKMS SSKs under P-75 (I) ! Collaborate with Russia for Kazan class SSN, Borei class/SSBN/SSGN and Posideion nuclear Torpedo tech !

 

[PKPRS]

Amur is a modernised Kalvari? I take it you mean the Amur is a modernised Kilo-class instead?

Sindhughosh is kilo class. ( I meant to type this).

 

[Anant]

Sindhughosh is kilo class. ( I meant to type this).

Um, no. The present Kalvari-class is the Scorpene-class, while the older Kalvaris were Foxtrot-class boats. The Kilo-class boats are the Sindhughosh-class.

 

[R. Singh]

Yeah... namaste to Russia.

Here is Russia's track record of AIP systems and recent SSK development:

1. Russia has never developed an AIP submarine.

2. Russia has never developed an AIP system.

3. Russia has become so bad at developing new submarines that a brand new diesel-electric boat (the Sankt Peterburg, lead ship of the Lada-class) was found to have so many problems that she was decommissioned after 3-4 years of active service (and a 23 year building period followed by a decade of working up and being fixed) and slated for scrapping.

Yeah, let them keep building modernised Kilos and selling them to others. We do not want their marginal assistance.

Germany may give AIP fitted SSK but it won't give vertical launch tubes, if DRDO provide fool proof AIP, India can go with Russia to develop a new SSKs that have vertical launch tubes to fire BrahMos,Nirbhay and other KH series of missiles !

 

[Sivbal]

Already we have developed our in-house SSBN, why cant we remove the nuclear reactor and instead put a diesel engine with batteries and create our own class of attack Submarine(for that matter nuclear attack subs)? This is running in my mind for a long time: All the countries around the world first developed basic submarines and went on to develop nuclear attack subs and then finally SSBNs. But our case is totally reverse. We are able to produce our own SSBN but for a basic diesel electric attack sub we are behind countries....what a shame!!

 

[Sivbal]

Also WRT Project 75I now Spain started protesting. I think this tender will go no where and finally we will ended up developing our own class of attack submarine.