UK Courts India for Tempest Fighter Jet Partnership, Rolls-Royce Eyes Engine Collaboration

The United Kingdom has renewed its invitation to India to join the ambitious Tempest sixth-generation fighter jet program, aiming to capitalize on India's expertise and potentially reduce development costs. While the UK currently collaborates with Italy and Japan on the project, both countries reportedly see India's participation as crucial to its success.

This renewed push comes after a previous attempt in 2019, with the UK highlighting the potential for India to contribute to software development and other key areas of the program.

In parallel, Rolls-Royce, a leading member of the Tempest development team, has expressed keen interest in collaborating with India on engine technology for the indigenous AMCA fifth-generation fighter program. This move could offer India a customized solution for its domestic fighter jet project.

India's decision remains uncertain, as the country balances its desire for access to cutting-edge technology with its "Make in India" initiative, which prioritizes self-reliance in defence manufacturing. While joining the Tempest program could offer technological advancements, it might limit India's control over intellectual property rights.

The Tempest program aims to develop a next-generation fighter jet with advanced capabilities, including stealth technology, artificial intelligence, and swarming drone capabilities. The target for the first flight is set for 2035.

India's participation could potentially reduce the program's estimated cost of $32.5 billion, a significant factor for all parties involved. The collaboration with Rolls-Royce on engine technology could also prove mutually beneficial, accelerating the development of India's AMCA program.

As India weighs its options, the decision to join the Tempest program or pursue a separate engine collaboration with Rolls-Royce will have significant implications for the country's defence capabilities and its role in the global aerospace industry.

 

[Anant]

I like most of what you wrote except $8 billion figure and few other things.

The total outlay for TEMPEST from UK, Japan and Italy is about $15 billions. Read it in western media.
So even if it goes to $20 billions, then Indian share would be about a maximum of $5 billions.

It will cost more than that for AMCA first prototype if we ever get one.

Boss, I based the 8 billion USD as 25% of the article's quoted 32 billion USD estimate for the whole development phase. Anything lower than that is obviously better for us.

 

[Anant]

Tempest may be a tempting offer. But it may be an attempt to kill India's resolve for indigenous development of defense armaments. India should not join the TEMPEST program at the cost of AMCA.

No, joining the GCAP program won't mean cancelling AMCA. If anything, the two programs would complement. Some of the technical expertise and knowledge, besides certain technologies from GCAP could be incorporated into the AMCA Mk II as well.

 

[Anant]

I think India can use part of the money from MRFA (see my comments in MRFA story) on TEMPEST program and rest on Indian fighters only including Super Sukhois, Tejas Mk 2, TEDBF, and AMCA.

4+ MRFA program will suck all oxygen (cash) out of all of other programs.
I truly fear it now.

If we are seriously considering joining GCAP, then we could look at scaling down MRFA by a bit. Say, scaling it down from 114 aircraft to 100 aircraft (as an example) would give us 5 squadrons under MRFA (instead of 6, which is manageable), and free up 4-ish billion USD that can be diverted to GCAP.

I am not in favour of cancelling MRFA entirely for the simple reason that HAL cannot be trusted to deliver as per schedule and in the numbers needed to offset MRFA entirely with the impending retirement of older jets in the 2030s, and because something like the Tempest will only mature in the 2040s. Cancelling MRFA puts us at a critical shortage of aircraft from the late-2030s to the mid-2040s, which can prove to be disastrous.

 

[Anant]

Can India manage $8 billion program cost + Y-o-Y inflation ?

Tejas Mk.2: 9000 cr ± 1000
AMCA: 15000 cr

Should be doable. If we scale back MRFA to say, 100 aircraft, that means 5 squadrons instead of 6 in MRFA, but this frees up some 4 billion USD, which can go a large way into GCAP. With some increases to defence budgets and increases in capital acquisition budgets, we should be able to manage the funding.

 

[Anant]

French offer might do India good, much more than this. IF the Brits, Italians, or Japanese knew anything comparable to French in aircraft designing, all 3 wouldn't be begging USA for F-35. Typhoon would have been mass produced crosssing 1000 numbers as originally planned.
French are at least a generation ahead of all these 3 countries in aerospace and avionics.

Not necessarily. France is going ahead with FCAS, but progress on that project is far lesser than what we are seeing in GCAP, even with Germany's involvement. Moreover, the massive costs of French aircraft may well be a point acting against them.

That said, we do need to seriously consider joining either GCAP or FCAS. Too much to lose if we don't.

 

[Ayyadurai Namasivayam]

India should collaborate only with Israel which already built 6th gen fighter

 

[Sandeep]

By looking at the comments there's pros and cons. While the technology is very important the fact is that under joint development programs by countries they first agree on the work share agreement, technology agreements, production agreements and price agreements which are all evenly distributed based upon what they are able to develop and they each produce that part of what they develop. This is to make sure that no country can outcompete the other and produce an entire product by undermining the other on the technology, production and price.

With India they just want the money from us and India will never get to produce the entire jet at all because we could build it much cheaper than them and therefore outcompete them. Also the type of weapons they will use and critical technology like engines, EW, stealth technology etc will never be transferred to India and they won't be compatible to our own existing systems and technology. Another problem is that the western countries can often refuse or delay producing some critical parts that can impact our own operational capability.

 

[Fresh Water]

One clear benefit of going alone -
The scientists and engineers from India will be in highly respected and paid in the global market.

(But, if you join the Tempest or any such program then 100% of the credit would go to occidental scientists and engineers. India would only be credited with providing the funds.
So, go alone to win long-term credibility and respect for Indian talent.)

 

[Fresh Water]

This is an attempt at creating a knowledge gap and talent gap in India.

 

[Fresh Water]

Stealth Fighter jet should b develop on its own , India already opted out from Indo-Russia project. Tempest is Multination project . Not all Tech will b Tranfered. India already approved Funds for AMCA.

India has the right to develop her own technology and talent.

Financially also, investing in building long-term facilities, sciences and intellectual assets generates greater net profits than paying to get the license to use someone else's intellectual property.

 

[Surendra Barsode]

India should seriously consider joining this initiative with UK, Italy and Japan. We need not do everything on our own and we need such collaborations for high tech areas. We must ensure that we are not dependent on anyone for critical technologies for our defense requirements. Once this is achieved, we can always collaborate with others on case to case basis.

 

[Aayush Pratap]

Two sides to every story but the takeaways may well be worth it. Just my two cents.

 

[sanket]

Do you have any brain???
How can the major founder approve shifting R&D, manufacturing and repair hub if GoI had no money to fund of joining the group plus expertise in fields especially if we are asking the use of their IP for Indian use and approval of export🤔🧐....

The real reason IMHO we are not joining is we don't have money😹😹😹 India has so many excuses.....
Mouse is already in the field and ready for the hungry predator to chuckin.... Problem is we are too choosey 😹😹😹

India is not interested But this 3 Nation want India to Join . So this Time on our Condition if Not we have AMCA Project going on no need any other project on there Condition .why we should Invest on there Project just to Manufacture few components , they are clever thay want Investment as well as order for few Hundreds Fighter jet .

 

[Fresh Water]

No company in the UK or the U.S. hires Indian citizens on such projects. Only their own citizens are allowed by their law to work on projects of national security.

Also, there are not many Indian companies in this field because the past government policies.
So, this is not a career option for many. We just comment on articles like this one.

Develop the ecosystem of public/private companies and laboratories in India.
Else, the old saga will continue.

 

[Sparkle Studio]

RR jet engine technology co development with IP transfer can be negotiated if it meets AMCA requirement and is economically competitive. Rest of avionics package can be co developed with Lockheed Martin. We already have much of technology developed.

 

[Neal.B]

Tempest may be a tempting offer. But it may be an attempt to kill India's resolve for indigenous development of defense armaments. India should not join the TEMPEST program at the cost of AMCA.

It should not be at the cost of AMCA but India could look at as a simultaneous project.

 

[Tanishq Bafila]

India should seriously consider joining the TEMPEST program as fourth foundational partner.
India will incur only 1/4th of the cost of development but advantages of getting top level technology on it and also possibility of pollinating Indian fighter programs with that technologies will be very enticing.

But all the negotiations and fine prints should be looked at very seriously with a microscopic examinations.

UK, Japan, Italy, and possibly India joining together and all of them need that 6th generation fighter very badly.

Certainly not , it's a program of UK mainly , it will always have the biggest share then Japan , then Italy and then india...

32 billion is just the estimate , with time the amount will go high , we won't be getting any crucial technology as we are the forth partner..

Remember in the Kf-21 problem , With only 2 partners Indonesia isn't happy with the amount of TOT transfer... Rather than spending billions for just getting some technology , we should give that money to our private and DPSU players...

 

[Gururag Kalanidhi]

Given that India has been struggling to get it's 5th Gen efforts off the ground, joining Tempest in an observer capacity or even with a contribution to the supply chain would go a long way in helping technology trickle down the Indian private sector. Bringing in players like L&T and TASL to the tempest program will benefit India immensely. However, taking such a decision with 2035 in mind requires long term vision, one that the current setup is found lacking. Such a program will not only benefit India, but will also push its standing in the global security order.

 

[Sparkle Studio]

2035!
It's idiotic for india which hasn't even been able to make a proper 5th gen jet to jump into 6th gen program.
India has always stayed out of weapon systems made by a joint collab of more than 3 countries due to supply chain security issues. This won't be any different. Obviously UK will have hold over main radar and engines. Already india is having difficulty selling Tejas due to british ejector seat.

There was a time when the british were capable of making their own fighter jets. But just like the eurofighter typhoon they are forced to collab with other countries

Speaking from an ideological standpoint, if india achieves the milestone of making 6th gen fighter jet the british nationalists will again start to gloat that india couldn't ve done this without british intelligence & capital. Same like how they do vis a vis the british empire

 

[Elie]

India should join lest it get left behind. If they participate they save in both AMCA program, they benefit in contributing & learning in advanced fighter & technologies programs. They will NOT & cannot do this in their own & if they buy the finished product they will pay much more. They cannot afford to sit on the fence and get bullied by China in the future like all nations in the Indo Pacific region. They must start doing something now before 2035 comes around. It really is a no brainer.!

 

[Anant]

India has the right to develop her own technology and talent.

Financially also, investing in building long-term facilities, sciences and intellectual assets generates greater net profits than paying to get the license to use someone else's intellectual property.

Sure, we have the right to do that. However, without having a developed or mature ecosystem where all such technology and talent is developed, we would just be on a wild goose chase. That is why we should be looking at joining GCAP or FCAS today, since that would allow us to contribute what we know, learn from others' expertise, and actually get something that we can use in other areas as well, as opposed to being an end buyer wherein we would just be, in your own words, paying to get the license to use someone else's IP.

 

[Anant]

Certainly not , it's a program of UK mainly , it will always have the biggest share then Japan , then Italy and then india...

32 billion is just the estimate , with time the amount will go high , we won't be getting any crucial technology as we are the forth partner..

Remember in the Kf-21 problem , With only 2 partners Indonesia isn't happy with the amount of TOT transfer... Rather than spending billions for just getting some technology , we should give that money to our private and DPSU players...

Um, Indonesia agreed to fund 20% of the project. In return, they'd get one prototype, would participate in design, get technical data for testing, and would co-produce the aircraft. They were never getting any technology beyond the technical data, detailed design documents, and the basic ToT that happens in co-production.

Just with that, they have been significantly behind on payments, which is also why South Korea has been reticent with sharing stuff.

 

[kumar]

So UK wants India only for money and reduce software development cost. We are better off on our own.

 

[Anant]

India should collaborate only with Israel which already built 6th gen fighter

Israel hasn't designed their own fighter, arguably ever. What they do is modify existing fighters to an extremely impressive level (Kfir and Nesher variants for the Mirage III and Mirage 5, or the proposed Lavi from the F-16, or the F-35I Adir from the baseline F-35, etc.).

 

[Akshat]

We been bombarded by propaganda that India is leapfrogging other nation in GDP and become richer but in reality we are still flagging of delay funding because in reality we don't have the money yet to allocate in a bigger project...
And that's the real hard fact that the GoI are not approving to leak

Tejas mk2 got its funds within 7 months. Amca in under 12 months. Not sure if they can go any faster as far as money is concerned. Usage, or rather wastage, of that money by DRDO is of course an entirely different thing.

 

[Akshat]

French AFAIK doesn't have any know how or hands on knowledge in developing of 5gen yet too much ambitious of 6gen....
FCAS 6gen members with some hands on know how and knowledge of 5gen tech and flying it is Germany....
Unlike GCAP Tempest 6gen UK and Japan has technology and know-how from 5gen that is crucial for 6gen... Japan Italy and UK operate 5gen so the real fact here is they are the most knowledgeable and have good ideas of what should be the definition of a 6gen aircraft likewise US gives approval of Japan partnership with UK because they are like-minded countries.... 😹😹😹If we join GCAP would we be also become like-minded too🙃

Your propaganda is obviously fake info....
If France is leading in aerospace technology,. why it can't even make innovation of 5gen and jumping straight to 6gen with the help of Germany and Spain 🧐🤔

If operating equals expertise, then India also operates Rafale but we are not even close to developing M88 or Spectra. Fact is that UK can’t develop an engine on its own. None of the members can. Similarly, a British researcher paid by EF also said that France is ahead of UK and other EF consortium members when it comes to Radar tech, and will remain so at least for this decade.

 

[Akshat]

Joining GCAP Tempest 6gen is a good opportunity to grab while it's still available on the platter... But I highly doubtful of our government capability to decide on this one 😹😹😹😹
If India is getting rich why it's still lagging behind in development and innovation to showcase Tejas mk2, AMCA and TEDBF plus more.... MRFA is still undecided for many years if our GDP is booming...
IMHO we don't have the money or funds,. We just faking it....

Not joining GCAP Tempest would be end us just as a customer and doesn't have right on a certain IP that we can call our own innovation to share and license.... We just keeping wanting IP's of technology that are not making in reality because of lack of understanding and experience that would be crucial if we join the club....

I saw many French lovers here but sorry FCAS is still a eurocentric groupies... Only exception is Belgium but as a observer at the moment till France, Germany and Spain decided so as one of the pillars 😹😹😹

Mk2 and AMCA are lacking because of HAL and ADA. Even for MRFA the GoI was hoping that somehow HAL would succeed. Let’s hope they open their eyes finally.

 

[Raja Raja Cholan]

I think the Indian government should take a good look at the offer on the table and do a through cost and effect analysis whether it is feasible project to be a viable partner. We have to look at the crucial role Indian scientists will participate in the programme, cost sharing and the percentage of technology sharing and level of participation in production facilities in India. All these vital parts of participation in the project should be discussed with UK partner.

If the outcome is worthwhile benefits the cost and brings value to India's partnership then India should go for it. There is alot to gain from this partnership in terms knowledge and experience. Of course naturally UK is well aware of India is in the midst of developing 5th generation fighter they will put some restrictions on transfer Tempest technology to AMCA and TEDBF projects. I think it is reasonably fair to protect copyrights. Take it this way, we have lost a huge amount of money in the failed Russian collaboration who was India's trusted partner. Why don't we give ourselves another chance to collaborate with some partners who bring along a wealth of knowledge and experience in technology. Even if don't get to incorporate Tempest technologies in AMCA but it will definitely give the Indian engineers a better insight of knowledge and experience in the development of AMCA and future projects probably 6th gen fighters. Don't reject the UK Tempest project invitation outright without even knowing what are the terms and conditions attached to the project partnership. In a way we should be proud the UK and other partners are respect of India's prowess in technology and computer technology.

 

[Pad UwU]

Mk2 and AMCA are lacking because of HAL and ADA. Even for MRFA the GoI was hoping that somehow HAL would succeed. Let’s hope they open their eyes finally.

Hopefully if they open their eyes widel🤞y... But still doubtful because of our corrupt bureaucracy system

 

[Pad UwU]

Tejas mk2 got its funds within 7 months. Amca in under 12 months. Not sure if they can go any faster as far as money is concerned. Usage, or rather wastage, of that money by DRDO is of course an entirely different thing.

If from the start GoI dedicated on funding those certain project when it was introduced from the start.... We are not in this mess😿
Well it's one of Indian characteristics of wasting money in some ways... While remembering India is the richest country when we are still a moghul empire before become a British Indian Raj😹😹😹