Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) News and Discussion

[Bikramjeet Goswami]

DRDO has always been in "lala" land and in spite of more pressure from GOI remains hopelessly inadequate and the only thing they excel in are periodic bombastic statements. There is a lot of blatant lying going on and either the higher ups are part of the conundrum or they lack intent to set this right. The third possibility is that we do not have any other viable options.

I doubt politicians and even air force officers understand the realities of current research and production capacity in India.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The only reason why they have managed to develop their stealth jet so quickly is because most of the technology, parts, equipment and components etc have mostly been bought from the USA and NATO companies. So South Korea isn't racing ahead as we are developing the AMCA completely by ourselves without any help which works out better in the long term.

Also the technology that we have developed for the AMCA will be 100% indigenously designed and made in India and it isn't a pipe dream. Currently they are already starting to make the items and parts now that the government has cleared the funds so private companies will be participating keenly. As for exporting their submarines they have again had help from the USA and NATO allies in technology transfer and they have had their military projects running continuously with upgrades and changes which incrementally makes each submarine more advanced than the last. India has never bothered until recently to design and develop their own submarines which take at least 10 years or more.

And do tell who stopped DRDO/HAL from doing the same and accelerate the project. Their job is to develop defense technologies on time not 2-3 decades after world has moved on form that technology.

 

[Rajesh Bhatnagar]

Why we have started talking of 110KN whereas initially it was mentioned 120+ KN thrust, So why 110KN??

 

[Rajdeep Dey]

As we r arriving late in 5th Gen Fighter development, I personally think that we should develop AMCA on 2 options !
One should be a Single Engine Varient and the other should be A Dual Engine Varient !
There should also be a factor of Cost !
We should always secure bang on bucks technique !
Just like the US development of F 15 and F 16 !
For High Intense warfare and Dogfights it's F 15 !
But for Raids and Low Intense warfare itz F 16 !
I am damn Sure we could hit the export market , as a single engine Fighter would be more cost effective and easy to maintain!

 

[Sandeep]

There was a report just a few days back on this very site that India is close to choosing a partner for development of a new engine. 🤣

Yes that was fake news because it was published in the media when the PM went to France and made the deals.

 

[Pad UwU]

The only reason why they have managed to develop their stealth jet so quickly is because most of the technology, parts, equipment and components etc have mostly been bought from the USA and NATO companies. So South Korea isn't racing ahead as we are developing the AMCA completely by ourselves without any help which works out better in the long term.

Also the technology that we have developed for the AMCA will be 100% indigenously designed and made in India and it isn't a pipe dream. Currently they are already starting to make the items and parts now that the government has cleared the funds so private companies will be participating keenly. As for exporting their submarines they have again had help from the USA and NATO allies in technology transfer and they have had their military projects running continuously with upgrades and changes which incrementally makes each submarine more advanced than the last. India has never bothered until recently to design and develop their own submarines which take at least 10 years or more.

I don't think your right that SK are not in the lead.... Korean government and it's air force ink a deal of 1st batch of kf21 Boramae mk1 to buy 40 aircraft at a price of $65m each....

Doesn't matter if they get help or not.... Our own decisions of soloing and the development made us slowpoke anyway... Those Korean and Turks will gradually replacing each US and European components that they will develop for every version and batch they'll make... While us is still in delululandia waiting if AMCA will materialize it's oh so overhype ,over engineered and over delayed prototype before 2035 😹😹😹

 

[Sandeep]

And do tell who stopped DRDO/HAL from doing the same and accelerate the project. Their job is to develop defense technologies on time not 2-3 decades after world has moved on form that technology.

The biggest hold up to defence deals that need large funds have to be vetted by the defence ministry who then send the information to the finance ministry who need to look at the detail and files to make sure everything is ok and proper along with the CCS before final approval is given. They aren’t going to just hand over a billion dollars without making sure everything is fine and no corruption is taking place.

 

[Pad UwU]

Kf21 and kaan, fc31 are pseudo 5th gen fighters at best. They are mainly made for export market, basically rich countries like saudi and UAE can buy them, since they cant get their hands on true 5th gen jets.

Then AMCA is 5gen PAPER PLANE😹😹😹 with a 6gen PAPER technology 🙃🤭

 

[Pad UwU]

2028 mein Tejas MK2 bhi ban gaya to bohot. AMCA iduction wont happen before 2040. India will be forced to buy Su57s paying three times their price as it will be a panic buying to counter Pak Air Force.

Yeah AMCA is very fine in printed 3d render PAPER with oh so overhype, over engineered tech and over delayed date 😹😹😹 plus it cannot fly until the developer decided it needs a working prototype

 

[Pink Panther]

Let us have the Mk1A first flight and MK 2 production dirat

and future proof picture too.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

The biggest hold up to defence deals that need large funds have to be vetted by the defence ministry who then send the information to the finance ministry who need to look at the detail and files to make sure everything is ok and proper along with the CCS before final approval is given. They aren’t going to just hand over a billion dollars without making sure everything is fine and no corruption is taking place.

Actually, the problem.lies with the way DRDO works on R&D projects. The bereaucratic red tape of getting approval from finance ministry is standard worldwide, what's not standard however is attempting to do everything at once on a project. KAI abd TAI succeed because they unlike DRDO know their limitations and focus on putting the platform in service first by sourcing components and sub systems from third party suppliers worldwide. However DRDO thinks its OK to waste away 2-3 decades while attempting to domestically produce everything at once.

Now LCA was delayed by 1-2 decades just because they kept waiting for GTRE to come through with a workable Kaveri, which of course it never did. Had they instead just acquired the engine from get go and put it in sky we could have started inducing LCA a lot earlier.

 

[Sandeep]

I don't think your right that SK are not in the lead.... Korean government and it's air force ink a deal of 1st batch of kf21 Boramae mk1 to buy 40 aircraft at a price of $65m each....

Doesn't matter if they get help or not.... Our own decisions of soloing and the development made us slowpoke anyway... Those Korean and Turks will gradually replacing each US and European components that they will develop for every version and batch they'll make... While us is still in delululandia waiting if AMCA will materialize it's oh so overhype ,over engineered and over delayed prototype before 2035 😹😹😹

No your wrong because with SK it doesn’t even have an internal weapons bay to call it a stealth fighter at all.

Also you can’t simply insert and replace foreign parts, components or equipment as easily as you think you can. To replace parts you need permission from the OEM who then has to certify that the part you made will work with the rest of the plane. You need to access the jets computer and make changes to the software and other hardware which only the OEM will have access to. So say you have developed a new EW system and want to use it instead of the original one and you install it. You might have developed it for let’s say 5 lakh but if you install it and something seriously goes wrong and the plane crashes that mistake will cost you around $50 million worth of damage if that plane crashes. So on foreign equipment and weapons you need the OEM guidance and permission to certify it but they usually charge a large price because they don’t want to lose out on making money in supplying you with original parts. You can’t just plug in your own parts and technology and expect it to work in the same way with the rest.

 

[Sandeep]

Actually, the problem.lies with the way DRDO works on R&D projects. The bereaucratic red tape of getting approval from finance ministry is standard worldwide, what's not standard however is attempting to do everything at once on a project. KAI abd TAI succeed because they unlike DRDO know their limitations and focus on putting the platform in service first by sourcing components and sub systems from third party suppliers worldwide. However DRDO thinks its OK to waste away 2-3 decades while attempting to domestically produce everything at once.

Now LCA was delayed by 1-2 decades just because they kept waiting for GTRE to come through with a workable Kaveri, which of course it never did. Had they instead just acquired the engine from get go and put it in sky we could have started inducing LCA a lot earlier.

Yes DRDO are very rigid and their way and method in developing advanced technology needs to change as there’s very little accountability and oversight with far to many small cluster’s focusing on one main technology rather than the entire product. They also need to work more with the private sector who can help out much more with talent and expertise that they don’t have. Bureaucracy is always a problem but India has been led with corruption since independence thanks to the corrupt jihadi party and we are paying the price now. Those rules keep power and money in check but it also slows down approvals.

The LCA program wasn’t given the funds or expertise right from the start and at best it was only being developed on paper. Instead they preferred foreign jets because they got large commissions. Progress only happened when the B J P came to power and fixed the mess out along with creating the Tejas 2, TEDBF and AMCA programs to develop that advanced technology if we want to become a superpower. As fire the Kaveri engine progress has also been made by producing 50KN of dry thrust which has been certified and will be used on the UCAV Ghatak drone. We are also developing the Kaveri Marine engine and good progress is being made so it can even power light to medium ships.

 

[BCharlie]

5th to 7th gen will take atleast a minimum of 5 to 6 decades time frame.

Yes, for sure sir.; for 5th to 7th gen that time of 6 decades from now, we may or may not have end result... but by 6 decades from now, the world will have maybe 9th or 10th gen fighters.

 

[PRO]

Why India's AMCA Outpaces Foreign-Backed Fighter Programs​

India's steadfast pursuit of its Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program underscores the nation's unwavering commitment to achieving self-reliance in defence technologies.

While rival programs such as South Korea's KF-21 Boramae and Turkey's KAAN have made strides, India's singular focus on indigenous development sets it apart in the landscape of advanced fighter jet initiatives.

The Limitations of Dependence​

Both the KF-21 and KAAN programs, though ambitious in scope, rely heavily on foreign assistance and technology. Defence expert highlights that the KF-21 incorporates significant contributions from American companies such as Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. Turkey's KAAN program has similarly benefited from assistance by BAE Systems and US-based firms.

This dependence introduces potential hurdles. Delays are one concern, as foreign partners may have competing priorities or become subject to geopolitical influences.

Furthermore, relying on external sources for critical technologies limits a nation's control over the final product and can potentially increase the risk of espionage.

India's Bold Path to Self-Reliance​

In stark contrast, India has charted a course for the AMCA program defined by a commitment to indigenous development.

By declining potentially lucrative partnerships offered through the MRFA program, India aims to achieve over 70% indigenous content in its advanced fighter, a significant feat compared to its peers. This strategy ensures India maintains complete technological sovereignty over the AMCA.

Though the AMCA program may have had a later start than those of South Korea and Turkey, its self-directed nature brings unique advantages. India mitigates the risks tied to geopolitics and external dependencies.

Moreover, the nation benefits from accelerated technological advancement driven by the necessity of developing all systems domestically.

National Security and Technological Advancement​

India's pursuit of the AMCA extends beyond technological independence; it is a cornerstone of a broader vision for bolstering national defence capabilities.

By achieving self-sufficiency in this critical sector, India ensures unhindered development and control of a vital element of its military power.

As India continues its trajectory toward becoming an aerospace technology leader, the AMCA program stands as a bold testament to its ambition.

The nation's focus on indigenous development and strategic autonomy serves as a model for other countries seeking to strengthen their own defence sectors while maintaining technological sovereignty.

 

[sanket]

Good Article for those who were very excited about This Two 4.75 Stealth Fighter Jet . AMCA is going in Right Direction After 110Kn indigenous Engine Content may go over 90%. Yes India will have Control over some critical Tech and AMCA MK1 IS 5.5 Fighter Jet & AMCAMK2 is 6th gen upgrded Tech .when it Enters in production it will match similar Fighter jet that is 6th Gen .

 

[PARTHAJIT JANA]

Engine is a fighter jet's heart which will be denied first in sanctions.Untill it is indigenised there is no self sufficiecy.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

on paper India has all the necessary tech which are building blocks of 5th gen fighter. The only question, and it is a big question, is to get it all together and mass manufacture the thing. 5th gen fighters are notoriously difficult to build in large numbers. F35 has hit its maximum production rate just now, after more than a decade since induction.

Maybe the delay in start of prototyping and going for Tejas mk2 as a bridge between tejas mk1a and AMCA, was a good thing. As it allowed us to develop and test the major subsystems beforehand and helps accelerate development of AMCA. Lets see how it pans out.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Engine is a fighter jet's heart which will be denied first in sanctions.Untill it is indigenised there is no self sufficiecy.

govt also thinks the same, that is why DAC gave condition of signing the 414 local production deal before giving green light to prototyping in order to force HAL and IAF to finalise it. Otherwise, it would have been in back burner for long.

 

[sanket]

Engine is a fighter jet's heart which will be denied first in sanctions.Untill it is indigenised there is no self sufficiecy.

Even if it is Indigenised US can Imposed sanctions , Once Foreign Partner is Finalised it will go to Self sufficiency.Only First 40 to 45 Including Prototypes req this GE 414 .Engine.Couple of day it was NEWS about Engine Testing Facility being Buit.

 

[yogesh]

Reference the article, this really is a great project that will help build an ecosystem for advanced technologies in the country

 

[Pink Panther]

Easy 15-20 years if everything else happens.

 

[Ramsses CDXX]

• This would be self-defeating because it would neither be cost-competitive nor export-oriented and the space would be grabbed upon by USA, RoK & Turkiye in 5th gen class leaving India for Africans & Latin Americans.
• Every succeeding generation will be more pricier than preceding. And if French, Germans, British & Americans have learnt lessons in offsetting cost through developmental workshare arrangements, Indians should --- by not doing we would be none wiser. They are the inventors, pioneers & top-notches of aviation ecosystem. Following Chinese & Russian autarchic Aatmanirbhar route will come at a cost.
• KF-21relies no more "heavily" than AMCA would on French, USA, German, Malaysia, Netherlands. 18 exact technologies were not granted by USA. LM, RTX, L3H, MooG, etc.. filled the gap through consultation & collaboration. South Koreans have time, money & export advantage over us.
• Minimize the risk of espionage.....Huhh❗How many defence personnel & DRDO have been honey trapped 🍯? India imports all military grade servers, workstation, HPC, microprocessors, DSP, CPU, GPU, machine tools, CNC from GVCs. That's how things are "vulnerable".

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

• This would be self-defeating because it would neither be cost-competitive nor export-oriented and the space would be grabbed upon by USA, RoK & Turkiye in 5th gen class leaving India for Africans & Latin Americans.
• Every succeeding generation will be more pricier than preceding. And if French, Germans, British & Americans have learnt lessons in offsetting cost through developmental workshare arrangements, Indians should --- by not doing we would be none wiser. They are the inventors, pioneers & top-notches of aviation ecosystem. Following Chinese & Russian autarchic Aatmanirbhar route will come at a cost.
• KF-21relies no more "heavily" than AMCA would on French, USA, German, Malaysia, Netherlands. 18 exact technologies were not granted by USA. LM, RTX, L3H, MooG, etc.. filled the gap through consultation & collaboration. South Koreans have time, money & export advantage over us.
• Minimize the risk of espionage.....Huhh❗How many defence personnel & DRDO have been honey trapped 🍯? India imports all military grade servers, workstation, HPC, microprocessors, DSP, CPU, GPU, machine tools, CNC from GVCs. That's how things are "vulnerable".

You believe Sarkari Bureaucrats brought up on and admitted to on the ideals of positive discrimination care about puny things like "best practices"?

We are a confused nation trying to ride two boats of capitalism and populism driven state owned corporation at the same time.

 

[Ramsses CDXX]

You believe Sarkari Bureaucrats brought up on and admitted to on the ideals of positive discrimination care about puny things like "best practices"?

We are a confused nation trying to ride two boats of capitalism and populism driven state owned corporation at the same time.

Perhaps Aatmanirbharta has become politicised & egotistical. No more Economics or S&T.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Perhaps Aatmanirbharta has become politicised & egotistical. No more Economics or S&T.

Also, Bureaucratic "lack of creativity".

 

[SURESH RAO]

India is the 4th country to seriously design and try to produce 5th gen fighter jet.

USA way ahead.

RUSSIA and CHINA catching up.

INDIA way behind.

Most of the European countries are going for 6th gen unmanned

 

[CCPSmasher]

We are so indepependt that every def projects overshots timelines, budget all the while undershooting the our urgent time bound capabilities

 

[desigandu]

Great, but now DRDO and HAL need to deliver the 1st prototype by 2027-2028 and produce in numbers by 2030-2032, and then operationalize Mk-2 (with 2 more side internal weapons bays + rear stealth + stealth external fuel tanks) by 2035 - can they???

 

[Sandeep]

This is the crucial difference that people don't understand when they say South Korea and Turkey are overtaking India when they aren't as they are just buying parts, components, equipment and technology from the USA and NATO allies.

India is developing everything by itself which is essential if we want to learn the science and technology involved to develop this jet because nobody else will give it to us. This jet will become the backbone of the IAF which we need to increase our fire power and squadron strength.