Kaveri Engine: Latest Developments & Discussion

[Raj Basu]

Greetings fellow aviation enthusiasts!

The Kaveri engine project has been a rollercoaster of progress and setbacks over the years. With recent news of advancements in testing and potential integration with the Tejas fighter jet, it's clear that this indigenous engine is a hot topic.

Let's use this thread to discuss:

• Latest News: What are the most recent updates on the Kaveri engine's development and testing? Are the reported performance figures promising?
• Challenges: What technical hurdles still need to be overcome? What are the implications of potential delays or setbacks?
• Future Applications: Beyond the Tejas, what other aircraft or projects could benefit from a successful Kaveri engine?
• Global Context: How does the Kaveri engine compare to similar engines developed by other countries? What are the potential export opportunities?
• Your Thoughts: What are your overall impressions of the Kaveri engine project? Do you believe it will ultimately be successful?

 

[PRO]

DRY Kaveri Engine Advances with New Focus on Thrust and Performance​

India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) continues to make significant strides in the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine. With testing of the DRY Kaveri engine scheduled and Initial Flight Release Certification targeted for later this year, the project enters a pivotal stage.

Innovations and Advancements​

The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) is receiving newly manufactured modules, signaling the production of the first entirely new DRY Kaveri engine. This marks a departure from previous efforts, which relied on modifying older Kaveri engines for technological demonstration purposes.

A key element of the project's advancement is the development of a new afterburner. This afterburner will be tested on LCA-Tejas Prototype aircraft, a crucial step in securing limited flight clearance and enabling further development.

GTRE's strategic roadmap includes plans to propose additional funding to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for a formal, sustained restart of the Kaveri program.

Performance in Challenging Conditions​

The DRY Kaveri engine, when fitted with a new afterburner, is projected to produce an impressive thrust output exceeding 80kN. This positions it as a strong contender to replace the F-404 engine currently used in the LCA-Tejas MkIA fighter.

Importantly, the Kaveri engine is specifically designed to perform optimally in India's unique environmental conditions, including the prevalent hot and humid climate.

Unlike the F-404 engine, which can lose approximately 10% of its thrust output in hot and humid environments, the Kaveri engine is engineered to maintain thrust levels under these challenging conditions. This ensures consistent performance even during maximum takeoff weight operations.

Resilience and Versatility​

The incorporation of flat-rated characteristics into the Kaveri engine design further increases its resilience against variations in ambient temperature and high-speed flight conditions.

The engine has demonstrated a reliable dry thrust exceeding 49kN, highlighting its potential for real-world operational scenarios.

Beyond its applications for conventional fighter aircraft, the DRY Kaveri engine is a promising powerplant for the upcoming Remotely Piloted Strike Vehicle (RPSV).

With a potential afterburner-equipped thrust output of 80-82kN, the Kaveri engine could propel India's next generation of advanced combat aircraft.

 

[sanket]

very Good news I was always saying after Fine Tunning kaveri may produce 85 to 90 kN Thrust . so Indian Tech is far better than foreign Tech where it does not loose its Thrust against Foreign Engine which tends to loose 10%.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Tall promises, the validity of which remains extremely suspect. Their previous attempt to revive the failed Kaveri jet engine by repurposing it as a Marine Gas Turbine Engine, failed precisely because it could not maintain the engine thrust at even sea level.

So will believe it when I see it. Rather than claiming fancy performance, it's best to zip it and instead focus on demonstrating the said capability, as it would be the best evidence of progress. Even the most recent engine attempt is yet to prove stable thrust output, persistently over a prolonged period of time.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Tall promises, the validity of which remains extremely suspect. Their previous attempt to revive the failed Kaveri jet engine by repurposing it as a Marine Gas Turbine Engine, failed precisely because it could not maintain the engine thrust at even sea level.

So will believe it when I see it. Rather than claiming fancy performance, it's best to zip it and instead focus on demonstrating the said capability, as it would be the best evidence of progress. Even the most recent engine attempt is yet to prove stable thrust output, persistently over a prolonged period of time.

Well, I would not call the marine gas turbine project failed. The tried testing something new. They are not going to get ideal results by testing a prototype for a different role than what it was designed for.
They will tweak it, engine development is very complicated business. At least they are trying.

 

[Ramsses CDXX]

What is not known or different from Wikipedia❓

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Well, I would not call the marine gas turbine project failed. The tried testing something new. They are not going to get ideal results by testing a prototype for a different role than what it was designed for.
They will tweak it, engine development is very complicated business. At least they are trying.

Then why did they propose to repurpose Kaveri engine which failed to operate safely during test flights and when modified for testing as gas turbines for Navy, it even failed to deliver flat rated thrust at even sea level. The fact that it failed to deliver flat thrust at sea level suggests that the design itself is faulty and needs significant rework.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

very Good news I was always saying after Fine Tunning kaveri may produce 85 to 90 kN Thrust . so Indian Tech is far better than foreign Tech where it does not loose its Thrust against Foreign Engine which tends to loose 10%.

All engines loose thrust irrespective of origin. It's just that some are better tuned to handle harsh climate conditions while others ste not.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Then why did they propose to repurpose Kaveri engine which failed to operate safely during test flights and when modified for testing as gas turbines for Navy, it even failed to deliver flat rated thrust at even sea level. The fact that it failed to deliver flat thrust at sea level suggests that the design itself is faulty and needs significant rework.

Because developing an engine from scratch would be much more expensive and time consuming. Original kaveri too so many years.

And where are you getting this detailed failure info?

 

[sanket]

All engines loose thrust irrespective of origin. It's just that some are better tuned to handle harsh climate conditions while others ste not.

There are only Four Countries which can develop Aero-Engine India & China are developing Engines for decedes . when this (Kaveri) Aero-Engine are been in developing stage they are Designed developed with Local Weather /Atmosphere conditions All Four countries have cold climate condition unlike India in Rajasthan where Temp is Hot and Humid so while developing kaveri Engine it was taken note of this Hot & Humid condition.thats difference.Even in MRFA All contender have to pass this process.while evaluating.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Because developing an engine from scratch would be much more expensive and time consuming. Original kaveri too so many years.

And where are you getting this detailed failure info?

It's well known the fact that it was quietly buried without much fanfare and media, suggests its performance was far from optimal and thus was given a quiet burial at sea. There was a detailed report few years back on the same as well.

 

[Kira]

Rather than repeating the claim the of this engine powering Tejas n number of times,it's better to fashion it for future unmanned aircraft that India will steadily see the necessity in near future.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

There are only Four Countries which can develop Aero-Engine India & China are developing Engines for decedes . when this (Kaveri) Aero-Engine are been in developing stage they are Designed developed with Local Weather /Atmosphere conditions All Four countries have cold climate condition unlike India in Rajasthan where Temp is Hot and Humid so while developing kaveri Engine it was taken note of this Hot & Humid condition.thats difference.Even in MRFA All contender have to pass this process.while evaluating.

The Kaveri which in the past has demonstrated serious issues in delivering flat thrust suddenly is so good that it will deliver performance without any loss of thrust? Gimme a break! It's almost impossible to build a jet engine that can deliver 100% thrust across all flight envelop. Even the adaptive cycle engines under development don't promise to deliver absolute thrust.

Besides, given the shoddy track record of the troubled project, it's difficult to trust GTRE. Thus as I said will believe it when they produce and demonstrate results in actual engine performance. Till then take whatever GTRE says or promises with a truck full of salt.

 

[Deepak Hegde]

The current stage of the Kaveri engine, even after these many decades is that it cannot even power a bullock cart and every week these jokers write articles as if Kaveri is the 8th wonder of the world.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

It's well known the fact that it was quietly buried without much fanfare and media, suggests its performance was far from optimal and thus was given a quiet burial at sea. There was a detailed report few years back on the same as well.

I know that work is going on by HAL, alomg with DRDO for a marine gas turbine engine, it must be related to kaveri, and uses the teachings of it.

As for the failure of kaveri for marine engine usage, it is u derstandable that it failed after all you can put an engine designed for fighter jets in a ship and expect it to perform great. It was more for research in my opinion.

 

[SK]

Indian-Govt irrespective of Political-Party at power should keep investing in Indigenous Jet engine programs.

I hope that DRDO achieves success in all its tests related to Kaveri-Engine's performance.

 

[alpha numeric]

There are only Four Countries which can develop Aero-Engine India & China are developing Engines for decedes . when this (Kaveri) Aero-Engine are been in developing stage they are Designed developed with Local Weather /Atmosphere conditions All Four countries have cold climate condition unlike India in Rajasthan where Temp is Hot and Humid so while developing kaveri Engine it was taken note of this Hot & Humid condition.thats difference.Even in MRFA All contender have to pass this process.while evaluating.

China and US have hot and humid conditions available within their borders. Maybe you should pick up an Atlas

 

[Baiju Bhaskaran]

Looks good on paper. Let's see how it works out.

 

[alpha numeric]

Tall promises, the validity of which remains extremely suspect. Their previous attempt to revive the failed Kaveri jet engine by repurposing it as a Marine Gas Turbine Engine, failed precisely because it could not maintain the engine thrust at even sea level.

So will believe it when I see it. Rather than claiming fancy performance, it's best to zip it and instead focus on demonstrating the said capability, as it would be the best evidence of progress. Even the most recent engine attempt is yet to prove stable thrust output, persistently over a prolonged period of time.

I have to agree with you here. You have consistently on multiple occassions made objective and pragmatic assertions, without the usual delusions of grandeur which is so rampant on this site. Brutal honesty and unflinching pragmatism I find is alien to most of my fellow citizens even more so amongst our administrative/policy making class.

 

[Sandeep]

It's well known the fact that it was quietly buried without much fanfare and media, suggests its performance was far from optimal and thus was given a quiet burial at sea. There was a detailed report few years back on the same as well.

I'm afraid your information is incorrect. Currently the Kaveri Marine engine is still going through the testing phase and it hasn't been tested on a boat out at sea. So there was no burial at sea at all.

 

[Sandeep]

I have to agree with you here. You have consistently on multiple occassions made objective and pragmatic assertions, without the usual delusions of grandeur which is so rampant on this site. Brutal honesty and unflinching pragmatism I find is alien to most of my fellow citizens even more so amongst our administrative/policy making class.

Currently the Kaveri engine has passed its test and been certified to produce a reliable, resilient and efficient 50kn of thrust. This engine will be used on our stealth UCAV Ghatak drone which will cut down on foreign expensive imports. If we want to produce a higher amount of thrust then we need to develop and install a indigenous afterburner which can produce a higher amount of wet thrust and meet the engine requirements for our Tejas jet. This can allow us to then swap out the F404 engine when it completes its service life and if we have developed the afterburner and it passes all of the tests and is certified then we could replace those with the Kaveri engine rather than the USA F404 engine.

At the same time we are also developing the Kaveri marine engine which is going through many tests and it's showing a good performance. We can then use this for small to medium ships and could soon cut down on foreign expensive imports. The engine hasn't even been tested or used on any boat so far but it still has a while to go to ensure it is eventually certified. So your information and knowledge isn't correct at all and progress is being made as the Kaveri engine has passed all of its tests and trials and it has been certified.

 

[Sandeep]

The Kaveri which in the past has demonstrated serious issues in delivering flat thrust suddenly is so good that it will deliver performance without any loss of thrust? Gimme a break! It's almost impossible to build a jet engine that can deliver 100% thrust across all flight envelop. Even the adaptive cycle engines under development don't promise to deliver absolute thrust.

Besides, given the shoddy track record of the troubled project, it's difficult to trust GTRE. Thus as I said will believe it when they produce and demonstrate results in actual engine performance. Till then take whatever GTRE says or promises with a truck full of salt.

Your absolutely incorrect and knowledge is lacking. If the Kaveri engine has passed all of its test and certified to deliver 50kn of thrust how is that a failure?

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

I'm afraid your information is incorrect. Currently the Kaveri Marine engine is still going through the testing phase and it hasn't been tested on a boat out at sea. So there was no burial at sea at all.

Oh it will underrgo testing eternally, just won't clear it in its original form. It needed serious redesign of some critical components and sub systems which seems to be in the process of being implemented in prototype produced by Godrej. The one produced by Godrej has made several modifications and that's what is being tested.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I know that work is going on by HAL, alomg with DRDO for a marine gas turbine engine, it must be related to kaveri, and uses the teachings of it.

As for the failure of kaveri for marine engine usage, it is u derstandable that it failed after all you can put an engine designed for fighter jets in a ship and expect it to perform great. It was more for research in my opinion.

Not quite they were at one point of time seriously pushing for the failed Kaveri jet engine to be reporposed ad a Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine engine and even Navy was actually considering it. Had it performed well, idea was to salvage the project by repurposing it as marine engine to power small fast attack crafts and missile boats. However, as fate would have it it flunked at delivering flat rated output at even sea level.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Your absolutely incorrect and knowledge is lacking. If the Kaveri engine has passed all of its test and certified to deliver 50kn of thrust how is that a failure?

It's certified tn dry thrust format only and is not cleared for anything but applications on UAV. Moreover it's clearance is preliminary and provisional so as to commence testing on board UAV.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

China and US have hot and humid conditions available within their borders. Maybe you should pick up an Atlas

Nothing like India. The type of climate variation that India presents is one of kind. There is just way too much tempreature variation that will definitely put stress on engine far more than what would have been normally possible.This thing was attested by Lockheed themselves after their F16 suffered flameout during MRCA trials.

 

[Varaaah]

If the govt can grab all the illegal begotten wealth of the P. Chidambaran clan, then the development of this engine can be funded easily.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Not quite they were at one point of time seriously pushing for the failed Kaveri jet engine to be reporposed ad a Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine engine and even Navy was actually considering it. Had it performed well, idea was to salvage the project by repurposing it as marine engine to power small fast attack crafts and missile boats. However, as fate would have it it flunked at delivering flat rated output at even sea level.

The project is not dead, they gained experience and work is probably on to repurpose it. Can you tell me other jet enjines like GE-414 etc can be interchangebly used as a marine gas turbine

 

[kumar]

Many people don't understand, how much effort is required in developing jet engine and going about giving gyan that kaveri engine is a failure. They don't even know the present status of kaveri engine and obviously, the comparative difference between kaveri engine and f404 engine technology level.

 

[Pink Panther]

very Good news I was always saying after Fine Tunning kaveri may produce 85 to 90 kN Thrust . so Indian Tech is far better than foreign Tech where it does not loose its Thrust against Foreign Engine which tends to loose 10%.

If this engine is not good enough for Tejas we can fit two of these engines and make ORCA, still 10KN more powerful than SNECMA M-88, for people who talk about thrust to wait ratio, ORCA could also be made much lighter with composites and titanium just like Rafale., we have expertise in both Composites and Titanium.