IAF May Only Get 2 Tejas Mk1A This Fiscal Year Amidst Further Delays in GE F-404 Engine Deliveries

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is facing a significant setback in its modernization plans as Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will likely deliver only two Tejas Mark-1A fighter jets by the end of this fiscal year, instead of the anticipated 18. This delay is attributed to ongoing supply chain issues plaguing General Electric (GE), the manufacturer of the critical F404 engines that power the Tejas.

The Tejas Mark-1A, an advanced version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, represents a crucial step in enhancing India’s indigenous defence capabilities. A ₹48,000 crore contract was signed in February 2021 for 83 Tejas Mark-1A aircraft, with deliveries expected to commence by March 2024. However, GE's struggle to meet engine requirements due to supply chain bottlenecks has thrown a wrench in the plans.

Sources reveal that GE can currently provide only two F404 engines, enough for just two Tejas Mark-1A jets. This shortfall leaves the IAF facing a considerable gap in its combat preparedness schedule, as the service was banking on the 18 jets to bolster its frontline squadrons.

"India will be receiving these two engines, allowing HAL to produce and deliver only two aircraft to the IAF by March 2025," sources confirmed. This delay raises concerns about the IAF's wartime preparedness, as the Tejas Mark-1A fleet was intended to play a crucial role in strengthening its operational capabilities.

While HAL is not directly responsible for this setback, the company now faces the challenge of adjusting its production timeline. The delayed supply of F404 engines could also impact delivery targets in the coming years if the supply chain issues persist.

This situation highlights the complexities of modern defensc procurement and the reliance on global supply chains. It underscores the need for diversification and strengthening domestic manufacturing capabilities to mitigate such risks in the future.

Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) recently clarified that no penalties have been imposed on General Electric (GE) for delays in the engines deliveries. However, reports indicate that Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh have raised the issue with US officials during recent visits, emphasizing the urgency of resolving the engine delivery delays.

 

[Manish Jha]

Whatever the aircraft the new iteration is, at least it can be produced and delivered on time. I don't care if it is LCA or XYZ, hopefully just an engine change would not take another 10 years. Building from scratch is different then tweeting the existing systems to accomated changes, when you have gone through the rigor of building the product. That is the beauty of owning the design and IP right, and understanding all the parts how it will behave.

Again you are wrong. Changing engine here is equivalent to creating new aircraft. As per the engine... The dimension of the aircraft would change and the project would again start with wind tunnel testing.

 

[RG]

Again you are wrong. Changing engine here is equivalent to creating new aircraft. As per the engine... The dimension of the aircraft would change and the project would again start with wind tunnel testing.

Nothing wrong with it, it will be better solution to continuous threat of sanctions and supply. If you stick to defeatist mentallity nothing will be achieved. no risk no reward, only slavery.

 

[Pad UwU]

This is a big blunder, we should start opting for Gripen E/F instead from the start 😹😹😹😹

 

[Anant]

I believe it's almost impossible to reengine a jet with a different engine in future,it's far too cumbersome and expensive of an endeavour.

Massive design chances, Sir. Especially if the new engine is of a different profile than the existing one.

 

[Anant]

Better go for RD33MK, comparable weight, assuming dimensions also similar, and thrust is equivalent to ge404. India has been producing RD33, so there wont be much issues. Regarding certification for use of RD33 on single engine jet then, it can be fastpaced.

Boss, the RD-33 is larger than the F404. The weight is broadly comparable, but the dimensions are larger. Even if you could work that in, the problem would be maintenance.

The RD-33 has a MTBO of around 650 hours, while the F404 has a MTBO of 1,000 hours. The F404 also has a longer operational life of 6,500 hours to roughly 3,700 hours for the RD-33.

As for fast-tracking certification, assuming you don't have to make design changes large enough to necessitate a complete re-testing of the airframe, you would still need a large regimen of flight tests, which is a 3-4 year endeavour at the least.

 

[Anant]

Why not IAF build its own engine program

They have tried, and have been trying for almost 40 years now. So far, we have the Kaveri, which is a decent-ish (albeit untested) engine with a thrust level just about sufficient for the Tejas.

 

[Akshat]

I don't want to become idealistic here bro!! In my country the worse thing is honest and hard working people are punished for their hard work and honesty due to politics!!

About GTRE they are not bad as people think but the main thing is this lab is not getting much more support from the GoI as no testing facility even no certification agency is available!! Their should be more investment in R&D but still we are lacking basic infrastructure for the world most critical tech.

I totally disagree buddy. It’s the exact opposite. These are bad (or at least incompetent) people. They are getting unlimited support from the government. Please go and look at their funding history. For Kaveri, they had initially asked for some 300 crores. Granted. Then they kept increasing it. GoI approved it every single time. This shows that there was practically a blank check that they had. In the last such revision, GoI had approved some 2800 crores. But they could only get 2100 sanctioned out of it and had money left over out of that too as they had no idea what to even do with it.

As for testing facilities, they were approved outside these 2800 crores. And all these test facilities were nothing but a shagufa to defend themselves. They were supposed to deliver the engine in the mid 90s bro. Or at least that’s what they had promised. But till 2006, they had never asked for the FTB. And as per CAG, they gen the components of the engine that were supposed to go on that FTB weren’t ready till at least 2009. GoI has stated in its reply in the parliament that there was no mention of FTB or many other test facilities in the original proposal of GTRE and many were demanded in the go. Most were approved.

Moreover, any professional knows that for the first iteration, you are supposed to be as frugal as possible. Why do you need a FTB upfront? GoI is paying to get the engine to Russia and have it tested, right? So take it there, get it flying and then ask for FTB for quicker approvals. You have to first show proof of concept bro.

So no, these are not ‘good people’ wronged by the system. These are the rotten system who have wronged the whole nation.

 

[Kira]

Massive design chances, Sir. Especially if the new engine is of a different profile than the existing one.

The very fact that even a smaller and simpler jet like the Jaguar failed to get a newer R&R or Honeywell engine is the testament to that fact.

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

MMRCA3.0 will launch soon but they need to add KF21 SK jets....

 

[Anant]

The very fact that even a smaller and simpler jet like the Jaguar failed to get a newer R&R or Honeywell engine is the testament to that fact.

Well, the Honeywell engine could have been fitted had the company not been trying to rob us in broad daylight.

 

[Anurag]

I totally disagree buddy. It’s the exact opposite. These are bad (or at least incompetent) people. They are getting unlimited support from the government. Please go and look at their funding history. For Kaveri, they had initially asked for some 300 crores. Granted. Then they kept increasing it. GoI approved it every single time. This shows that there was practically a blank check that they had. In the last such revision, GoI had approved some 2800 crores. But they could only get 2100 sanctioned out of it and had money left over out of that too as they had no idea what to even do with it.

As for testing facilities, they were approved outside these 2800 crores. And all these test facilities were nothing but a shagufa to defend themselves. They were supposed to deliver the engine in the mid 90s bro. Or at least that’s what they had promised. But till 2006, they had never asked for the FTB. And as per CAG, they gen the components of the engine that were supposed to go on that FTB weren’t ready till at least 2009. GoI has stated in its reply in the parliament that there was no mention of FTB or many other test facilities in the original proposal of GTRE and many were demanded in the go. Most were approved.

Moreover, any professional knows that for the first iteration, you are supposed to be as frugal as possible. Why do you need a FTB upfront? GoI is paying to get the engine to Russia and have it tested, right? So take it there, get it flying and then ask for FTB for quicker approvals. You have to first show proof of concept bro.

So no, these are not ‘good people’ wronged by the system. These are the rotten system who have wronged the whole nation.

Ok buddy we have some different opinions but let's discuss it with more each other's point to to understand each other side!!

It's true that kaveri program was sanctioned in 1989 for some 500million initial value and it has to be completed in after some 8 years....
Now comes to the part that is really not good We started the program from the scratch without anyone's help it was basically means to be supported by everything but geopolitics too have delayed the program as it's first core ran in 1995 it was like a hope of light but we have to other security issues and it was 1998 nuclear tests and then it was kargil and sanctions. We were isolated and political will was down to support it!!
It was around 2005 when last hope of kaveri was gone as it failed high altitude test...

The program was already have delays and cost overrun but it was continued on slow basis and around 2009 it was open for the help as early help from pratt & whitney was rejected by the Drdo chief!!
With France help program again revived but it was 2010-11 when it was seen that program has achieved only 2 milestones only!! Still 4 left and CAG report basically put the program the end as it heavily criticized the program delay and cost overrun and still not achieved the results(report was fair and fine but developing something like kaveri is really a crown jewel technology that was forgotten) and around 2012-14 program was removed from the Tejas and was merely funded from that time!!!

But here I want to add one thing MoD released a report in kaveri in 2010 itself has shown us what we are struggling for!!
few things in the report was eye-catching as we are struggling with the lack of skilled manpower and lack of expertise in critical material and we are getting no support from others and obviously we lack basic facilities for development of an engine like flying test bed and others!!!

Around 2022 when kaveri was sent to Russia for further test we were hopeful of getting the thrust of 46kN but it was more than that 48.5kN yeah different temperatures and other factors here too!!

But as we from the start lack in metallurgy and other factors in our country!!!

I am just waiting for the 2026 when kaveri was going to be put on ghatak!!

The thing is no one wants to take the risk as their is long demand for the flying test bed and still getting rejection if we are in position to run the program and it was just basic success. we will be in better position today to deal with!!

 

[19621020]

Yes it seems like the case, nothing will happen going forward until a miracle happens, I wonder why these guys are running after engines and wasting precious time, why can’t they change the design of Tejas MK2, I know it’t too late for MK1A, for whatever engine is available, or at-least make twin engine ORCA instead of waiting for foreign engine, we need to learn to live with whatever is available like the chinese way, we have enough population, there will be a couple of crashes initially, but we will learn lessons from the mistakes and make it better eventually.

Indians believe that China's military strength is not as strong as India's, why does India still want to learn from China?

 

[PKPRS]

That is what HAL is right now doing. It is asking ToT for all the components that are manufactured in south Korea and are unable to supply. They are asking this as compensation for breaching the agreement. Then they will be manufactured locally in India. This is latest one I just read on business insider.

If that happens, it will be good, but there are a lot of hurdles on the way, who knows what will be the policy of the new US administration.

 

[Akshat]

Again, a lot of wrong facts in this comment. So Inwill point those out.

We started the program from the scratch without anyone's help

Absolutely and patently false. Safran had helped us as a consultant right from the start itself. In fact, they were supplying us various components even through the nuclear sanctions (or at least by 2000, so the delay in itself due to sanctions was negligible, if any). Russia was also helping us most of the time, except maybe a few years around 1998. The deadline itself for the project was 1996 so we had full foreign support well beyond the project’s original deadline.

Now coming to the ‘scratch’ part. Again, wrong. GTRE had worked on GTX37 project. They had also worked on the reheat system (or afterburner) and compressor system for Orpheus engines. So they were surely not starting from scratch and had full foreign help.

around 2012-14 program was removed from the Tejas and was merely funded from that time!!!

Again, wrong. It was removed from LCA project in 2008 only. But funding was continued and even fresh funds were given around 2009-2010. These funds were not even utilized by GTRE as they had no clue whatsoever what to even do with that money. We have parliamentary documents that at least till 2016, it was properly funded by MoD and leftover funds were present. In fact, as late as 2015, GTRE was asked for a proposal for testing facilities at a cost of 1500 crores. So significant funds were available at that time.

So no bro. Facilities were given, funds were given, support was given as well. And they were supposed to develop those capabilities, that was the whole point. So don’t say that we didn’t have the capability so give them a free pass. They were first made to upgrade the Orpheus engines, then GTX37 and then Laveri. That was meant to let them develop the capabilities but they failed.

 

[PKPRS]

I was also saying same make Tejas MK2 can fit any type of engine.

it will take a long time to test to fit another engine with bigger dimension, but we can fit a engine with similar or smaller dimension without altering the overall dimension of the jet, , for an example SNECMA M-88 and GE-F404 have similar dimension, EJ-200 engine in Eurofighter is smaller, each engine also have different intake requirement, we design the air inlets larger or smaller based on the requirement, but changing just this wouldn't take as much time like installing a bigger engine, but we still have to do wind tunnel testing again to test the overall aerodynamics of the jet, it is too late for MK1A but doable for MK2.

 

[Rajesh]

IAF should order and give separate funds to HAL, as a technology demonstrator project, to replace GE provided engine in the Tejas with AL-31FP engine along with incrase in internal fuel tank size by 100kg.

Good idea but mk1a with al31 will need a lot of structural changes and again teat certifications will take ages. But that can be done with mk2 and amca since they r in design phase can incorporate those changes now itself. If we r intended to use al31 better to go with al41 and here we again have options with f110-Ge132. Al41 can again be used on su30 as well. Mk1a can be re engined with rd33 mk or ej200 as only these r nearing the specifications of ge404. Our govt is confusing and complicating fighter jets and engine issue with no substitutes which always open the room for blackmailling.

 

[PKPRS]

IAF should order and give separate funds to HAL, as a technology demonstrator project, to replace GE provided engine in the Tejas with AL-31FP engine along with incrase in internal fuel tank size by 100kg.

Single AL-31F1P engine is not sufficient enough to power a single engine aircraft, we also need to consider PWR, it’s a heavy engine, this engine could be used in tein engine ORCA or TEDBF.

 

[PKPRS]

They can, but an engine with higher thrust will also generally be larger and heavier. That needs to be accounted for in airframe design. Moreover, having a higher thrust setting also means that this higher setting will have to be accounted for in the airframe.

I beg to differ, it’s not necessarily the case , EJ 200 Stage 2 produces 120KN output it is more compact and lighter than bozh GEF414 that produce 22KN less power and SNECMA M88 that produce 45KN less power.

 

[captsai]

Brother, I or any logical person would agree to your suggestions intent but the choice of engine you given is completely irrational.

The problem is that there is no other practical engine currently available in the market which could generate same thrust 81 to 90 KN.

The most reasonable and most easy solution right now is that to merge Kaveri engine with M88 core. As a part of Rafael offset Safran has already did the research and that time they asked additional 1 Billion to perform the integration and certification.

once that is done we can built our core and during life cycle service, we will have our own engine of this 80 to 90 Kn class.

JV with ToT between Safran-HAL-ADA at any cost is worthwhile in our countries need for aviation engines. Safran-HAL already produce Shakthi engine for helicopters. High time all at ADA, HAL, IAF & IN unite to conclude at the earliest undet MoD