Opinion Why India Should Not Choose French Safran for AMCA 110kN Engine? Taking Lessons from Previous Kaveri-M88 Collaboration for Tejas

India's pursuit of a domestically produced 110kN engine for its Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program has brought it to the negotiating table with French engine manufacturer Safran.

However, past experiences and technological disparities raise serious questions about the wisdom of this partnership, particularly concerning technology transfer.

A former employee of India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the organization responsible for developing indigenous engine technology, recently voiced strong concerns about the ongoing negotiations, characterizing the discussions as unproductive.

The ex-official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, warned that France has a history of making ambitious promises regarding technology transfer but failing to deliver fully. This pattern, the source suggests, could put India's fifth-generation fighter program at risk.

The official cited a previous attempt in the early 2010s to co-develop a hybrid engine for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program. This involved combining elements of India's Kaveri engine with Safran's M88 engine, which powers the Rafale fighter jet.

The technology transfer offered by the French at the time was reportedly minimal, focusing on less critical components. Safran, the official stated, insisted on retaining intellectual property rights (IPR) for the core of the M88-2 engine, the most crucial part for performance. This disagreement ultimately led GTRE to abandon the collaboration.

The proposed M88-Kaveri hybrid was also limited to 83-85kN of thrust. This was insufficient for the Tejas Mk2's 98kN thrust requirement, and suitable only for Tejas Mk1.

Moreover, Safran required a minimum order of 300 engines, a number that did not align with the Indian Air Force's (IAF) needs, which at one point included studying a "universal" engine for both Tejas Mk1 and Mk2.

Another point of contention raised was a "technical audit" of the Kaveri engine, reportedly conducted by a French team as part of the 2016 Rafale fighter jet deal. While the French team cleared the Kaveri for flight testing, the former GTRE employee downplayed the significance of their contribution.

The source claimed that GTRE had already resolved most of the major issues of Kaveri, including problems within the engine's core, before the audit. Subsequent collaboration with General Electric (GE) of the United States, according to the official, proved more beneficial in addressing remaining technical hurdles.

These past experiences are particularly relevant as India considers Safran as a partner for the AMCA's 110kN engine, a crucial component for the stealth fighter's performance. The former GTRE insider expressed skepticism about France's current proposals, highlighting a significant technological gap.

The official pointed out that Safran had been unwilling to share technology for a fourth-generation engine (the M88) previously, and now proposes co-development of a fifth-generation engine, a technology they have not yet developed themselves.

Indeed, while countries like the United States (with the F135 engine for the F-35 and ongoing adaptive engine programs) and Russia (with the Izdeliye 30 for the Su-57) have operational or developing fifth-generation engines, France's current offering, the M88, is a design dating back to the 1980s with a maximum thrust of around 75kN (with afterburner).

This disparity, the former official argued, casts doubt on France's ability to contribute meaningfully to the AMCA engine project. The successful development of a powerful and reliable engine is crucial for the AMCA to meet its performance goals, and any shortcomings in technology transfer could significantly impede India's progress towards achieving self-reliance in defense technology.

 

[Rinku Pandey]

France will use our funding to learn the technology and then create their IPR. This is what happened with Kaveri and M88. In the name of developing the Kaveri engine, they improved on their M88 engine with our funds. They made fools of GTRE and GOI. GTRE should have been smart enough to snap their brain. I have been working for private companies for the last 28 years. Indians don't want to talk to the point or get to the point. They make a lot of farting talk.

Take the example of Mirage; France charged billions of dollars for the upgrade of Mirage fighters. The same is going to happen with Taporee Rafale F3, which is due for an upgrade.

Rafales are still the best in the world and won't need an upgrade for another 15 years. Until then, we will have 200 MK1A, 180 MK2, and 120 AMCAs. No need for Rafales after 2040. We will be totally Atmanirbhar.

 

[Rinku Pandey]

European nations do not have any know-how of how to build fighter jet engines with power > 90 kN (afterburner) or > 60 kN (dry thrust).

In contrast, the AL-31 engine in the SU-30 MKI has a dry thrust of ~75 kN and an afterburner thrust of ~125 kN.

So, we are trying to make an expensive deal with someone who himself does not know how to do that job.

RR is making a 5th-gen engine for Turkey and a 6th-gen engine for their 6th-gen fighter. Russian engines have a service life of 2000 hrs, whereas Western engines have a service life of 5000 hrs.

 

[SURESH RAO]

Rafales are still the best in the world and won't need an upgrade for another 15 years. Until then, we will have 200 MK1A, 180 MK2, and 120 AMCAs. No need for Rafales after 2040. We will be totally Atmanirbhar.

Gone are the days of an aircraft component remaining for 10 or more years. Today, electronic components like AESA radar are getting modernized every 2 years. India produced the UTTAM AESA radar and within 2 years produced the Virupaksha AESA Radar. This is one example. There are several hardware and software components which can get upgraded every 1, 2, 3, or 5 years. It all depends on what the enemy is having. If the enemy is having a superior radar, then we need to upgrade to a more superior radar.

 

[SURESH RAO]

France gives third-generation obsolete technology at exorbitant prices, like the Mirage upgrade, which cannot fire Meteor and does not have the AESA radar, still just the avionics upgrade, costing 50 million per plane. The plane cannot defend itself. Please don't ever think of buying Greek or Qatari Mirages.

I completely agree with you. France gives the third grade obsolete technology at exorbitant prices.

 

[Andy S]

India's obsession with foreign stuff and technology doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. India has been beaten up by many countries, still good sense has not prevailed upon this country.

Every other country wants to restrict India on inventions and development. They will try every possible method to thwart its progress.

The question before everyone is why India can't test the Kaveri engine on old test aircraft platforms in real-life situations and improve further?

Every other person in power knows about the foreign play, but they want to look the other way. Don't trust anyone. It's a matter of time. If France doesn't agree to full ToT as a first condition, just keep them away.

Spot on analysis. We are trying to develop an aero engine and don't even have a testbed aircraft. Every time we need to send it to Russia, they take their own time. This kind of attitude is responsible for the current state of affairs.

 

[Raja Raja Cholan]

RR is making a 5th-gen engine for Turkey and a 6th-gen engine for their 6th-gen fighter. Russian engines have a service life of 2000 hrs, whereas Western engines have a service life of 5000 hrs.

Exactly, I am wondering why our GTRE executives are clinging on to the French company Safran as their best option left to them. I may be missing something here. Why is GTRE very interested in Safran?

 

[Arin Kumar]

RR is making a 5th-gen engine for Turkey and a 6th-gen engine for their 6th-gen fighter. Russian engines have a service life of 2000 hrs, whereas Western engines have a service life of 5000 hrs.

There is a gigantic difference between "making" a 5th gen engine and already having an operational engine.

That way going, we are also "making" a 4th generation Kaveri Engine - but is it ready?

Till now, ONLY the USA has the ability to manufacture a 5th Generation Engine. Even China's J20 works using a variant of the AL 31 engine - which is a 4th Generation Engine.

Yes, European engines last longer than Russian Engines.

But if it cannot generate enough thrust - what will you do with that engine? Then we have to build a very small and light fighter jet, like the Rafale, that will have a relatively small payload.

We need to test the Kaveri on the Tejas - even if with ZERO weapons load and ZERO radar and electronics load. At least we must check whether the Kaveri can fly or not.

 

[Arin Kumar]

This is the point I have been trying to make. France is a known backstabber. Them having the lead in negotiations once again proves the babus have no common sense.

But I am surprised to hear that GE helped out more than France. That should be impossible.

If our scientists and engineers are incompetent, if they do not have the proper labs and equipment to design, build, and test aeroengines, any foreign engine seller will look like a backstabber.

Otherwise, who stopped us from replicating the AL-31 engine of the Su-30 MKI that we have been using for the last 25 years? Then is Russia a backstabber?

 

[Enforcer]

100% agree. The French are selfish when it comes to ToT. They themselves already acknowledged the reason behind it, which is fear of new competition.

They would loose us as customer too. Its loss - loss situation for them.

 

[Shankys]

It was in 2005 that I first heard of very spirited reports in the Indian press of France "sharing" world-beating reactor technology and pump-jet propulsion for our nuclear submarines. Guess who actually shared the reactor technology and provided a nuke sub for training? On its basis, India has developed and deployed its SSBNs and will now make SSNs. Our expectations and reality checks seldom match. We live in a state of eternal awe of the unobtainium.

 

[vinod nair]

Haha, there is no joint development, only jointly fooling our country... We should purchase the technology of fifth-generation engines if it is possible, or purchase the engines in bulk for our requirements. No exporting until we have our own engines.

 

[vinod nair]

The mentality of the French charlatans is clear in the fact that they are now cursing Germany for giving Submarine TOT, which will eat their business. France doesn't honour contractual agreements; don't give them another chance. I hope the MoD nincompoops pay heed to GTRE and don't force them to go with Safran.

I am doubtful whether Germany will give, considering our tender process. L1 and L2 both should be simultaneously engaged till the last, so that there is no scope for backstabbing, but L2, in this case, should be Russian rather than Spanish ones. For example, in MRFA, it would have been good if we had simultaneously engaged Eurofighter along with Rafale, even after the lowest bidder.

 

[DB_NE_Guy]

They would loose us as customer too. Its loss - loss situation for them.

Who cares about them? Their loss is our gain. In a business dealing, everyone thinks only about profit. If they do, then we should also do the same. Indian profit should be our priority, and French loss should be our lesser concern.

 

[Muthu.Kumar]

The very fact that India keeps on riding on the shoulders of the West and begging them for technology makes me puke.

Why shouldn't GTRE join hands with the nation's premier technological institutions such as IITs, IISc etc to get help in plug the holes in the design and revive KAVERI to match its western counterparts?

And BrahMos developed a new afterburner for KAVERI, augmenting the thrust to 80 kN.

Similary, ISRO too offered to help GTRE in KAVERI engine project.

So, instead of shamelessly piggybacking on the West like an intellectually paralyzed and handicapped nation and bringing shame, GTRE should work with the academia and the industry and other labs like ISRO, BrahMos etc.

If they do it and work tirelessly and fast track, they can get KAVERI up and running with 100+ kN thrust, making it the Indian answer to F-414 or M-88.

All it needs are some spine, some vision, some conviction and some aggression.

BUT I'M SURE GTRE IS NOT UP FOR THE CHALLENGE.

 

[vyoma]

Don't pay till they deliver substantially.
I think GE will finally give everything.
GE with ceramic core will update F414 to 125 KN and this will be the game changer.
All four Safran,GE ,Rolls Royce and Russians will not give what india is asking for since that will create their own competitor since manufacturing costs of india will be far lesser than them

125kN is still underpowered since the specs are flat rated. That means 20% is derated thrust.

If we need 110kN flat, we need GE with 132kN.

F110-GE-132 is ideal.we one feet extra space length wise which is acceptable and possible.

 

[Prem Jain]

RR offer is the most attractive with no strings attached. Meantime we should innovate with the Kaveri engine to achieve a higher performance and should aim to surpass the 110 KN. We can do it as we have the most skilled brains. When others are competing to collaborate with GTRE, it indicates that they have understood that we have the talents will be beneficial for both. Safran is reluctant and we need not waste much time on them.

 

[skumar7777]

It is pathetic that DefMIn / IAF / DRDO / ADA / HAL cannot draft a water tight contract with vendors that explicitly states what tech & IPR will be shared after decades of being fools of.

 

[Vivek M. R]

Safran and RR are 7-10 years away from a 5th Generation engine France may upgrade their snecma M88-2 to M88 - 3/4 for l for their Rafel F5 but still may not have 110Kn engine for atleast 7 years. Their engines have supercruice but they are faraway from adaptive cycle engines for one more Decade. RR has 90KN+ engine already for Euro fighter but they may have to go for new design from scratch for a 5th Generation incase they have project to design a common European 6th Generation fighter which will take another 10years. As UK, Italy, Germany have F35 already and NATO umbrella. So with RR at best we may get 110kn 4th Gen engine and a existing RR 90kn+ engine certified for single engine fighter.
.

 

[Vivek M. R]

Most thinking people are wondering how the Chinese have made huge strides on all platforms despite their earlier setbacks. At one point, the Chinese were behind India, but today, they are so advanced in all fields that they are competing with the United States.

The saddest part is that India, despite its huge educated masses, can't or is unable to hold a candle to the Chinese. The Chinese are a nation of born criminals. They steal from every country they set foot in. Their research is minimal. Because they are thieves, they don't have to do any major research; they are very good at stealing secrets, which they have utilized to the full.

India, on the other hand, is bogged down with uncooperative states, citizens with low morals, a rape culture, and is divided to the core by religious beliefs, and is basically corrupt. A few examples of waste of time and money are the space projects. India is literally the "bikaris" of weapons technology.

They have not made any progress in all aspects of aircraft production; the Chinese have managed to get their act together to get a few planes out in a few years. Why is this? Perhaps they are deep-rooted in their loyalty to their own country. India is struggling to find a decent maintenance crew for their planes.

Consider the Israeli Air Force: although they are technically a very advanced country, their R&D is world-famous. But they are not interested in developing a new plane to take to the air. Perhaps India should closely observe the Israeli way of doing things.

India and Israel face the same situation: they are surrounded by enemies. Israel bought American planes and modified them to their own standards. They have utilized the F-15EXs to their maximum capability.

India should look for assistance from the Israelis when it comes to intelligence services, weapons design, special ops capability, aircraft requirements, the navy, the army, and equipment, since time is running out for India, as the Chinese are building a huge invasion force in the Himalayas.

The Bangladesh military has become Islamic and they are seeking to attack India, perhaps allowing the Pakistanis to place their long-range missiles in Bangladesh. The Pakistani forces are well prepared for a long war with India, so India has to act quickly.

Very good observations and solution. Though India is late it is better late than never. We should forget export ambition of fighter planes for another decade.