France Offers Advanced Materials and Metallurgy Collaboration for AMCA Jet's 110kN Engine Development with India

In a significant boost to India's indigenous defence manufacturing ambitions, France has pledged its support for the development of a powerful 110kN engine destined for the nation's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program.

This collaborative effort will see France provide crucial technical expertise and support in the complex process of designing and building the advanced engine, which is expected to significantly enhance the AMCA's long-range strike capabilities.

The partnership extends beyond engine development, encompassing cooperation in advanced materials and metallurgy. These fields are fundamental to the production of critical components in both military and civilian engines.

This collaboration presents a valuable opportunity for Indian industries to gain expertise in advanced metallurgy, specifically in the intricate processes of forging and casting components vital for aircraft engines.

Mastering these technologies is essential for India to fully absorb and utilize the high-end technology involved in such joint ventures.

While France has committed to supporting the 110kN engine program, the final decision on which company will lead the engine's development for the AMCA 5th generation fighter remains pending.

India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) is currently evaluating proposals from industry giants GE Aerospace and Rolls-Royce, while also exploring the possibility of an entirely in-house development program.

The ultimate choice of engine developer carries significant implications for India's defence industry and its long-term strategic objectives. A successful outcome to this program would not only strengthen India's military might but also position the country as a key player in the global aerospace arena.

This development aligns with a broader trend of increasing defence cooperation between India and France. Recent reports indicate that France has also offered to collaborate on other critical defence technologies, including nuclear submarines and underwater drones, further solidifying the strategic partnership between the two nations.

 

[Akshat]

Just the the typical French propaganda to kill anything indigenous … particularly Kaveri engine (or even GE F414) and Mk2. These developments threaten French business directly and materially. They would only like to see MRFA. So your desire is understood.

DRDO and HAL really work on tight shoe string budgets. $300m in todays money for entire Kaveri program over two decades vs $300m written off on failed FGFA design participation (about a decade ago) or $1.5B for India Specific Enhancements in Rafale (again about 7 years back). Our entire budget for brand new MK2 is 25% less than that. IAF somehow doesn’t like the French standards and willing to spend arms and legs for its modifications.

GoI and IAF haven’t delivered even basic infra for engine development … not even high altitude simulation labs IAF cannot spare one MiG29 it doesn’t matter half of the fleet is grounded.

More fake propaganda just to defend the DRDO. I mean, even if you ignore the fact that IAF has specifically said that Mk2 can’t replace MRFA, even though GoI has said in the Parliament that Kaveri won’t be used, even though most of the money for Kaveri was issued before 2000 and you haven’t factored in inflation…at least do the math correctly. ~2100 crores were spent on Kaveri by 2010. The conversion rate that year, on average, was 44. So that alone is about 475 million USD.

 

[Akshat]

India has proven it has the technology by fixing the AL31 engine, but handholding for commission for MoD seems more important. A flying test bed would be hundred times cheaper then wasting resources on joint ventures.

A flying test would still need a working engine to test on it.

 

[PKPRS]

Good News, Just clear all doubts and then Sign deal for Engine development project with France No loophole should b remained .US is Back stabber & Not Like to 100% ToT & Export Restriction plus war Time Sanctions US like to guard Tech anyway, While may want to Hold Joint IPR for the developed Engine India .

Don’t fall for it, they are liars, they also don’t have the latest engine tech, they are trying to make Rafale faster with indian tax payers money.

 

[PKPRS]

France does not have anything to offer. They just want to loot India.

Absolutely, they depend on German MTU for FCAS Aero engine, all they have is 80’s tech SNECMA M88, which they stole from EJ200.

 

[ASHOK CARROL]

India in a fix .The french Safran and British Rolls Royce engines will take 7 to 10 years to develop and with Indian money they will fund their own 6th gen engines for Tempest and FCAS. India with The American engine GE F-414 EPE and EDE will be further step up of modifications to increase the power of the engine to 116kn .This engine will be based on the F-414 IN being built in India with 80 % transfer of technology . The Americans G.E only want 2to 3 billion $ for further development of the existing Engine . A difficult choice except, go for two Seperate programmes , One with Americans and one with french or British To insure against unforseen withdrawls . What ever be the outcome DRDO , GTRE need to expedite the High altitude engine test facilty at LLeh and procure a four engine flying test bed and new generation wind tunnels for engine testing and infrastructure . Private companies need to be tasked to create purchase 3d designing , linear vaccum welding and q7th generation CNC machines . Companies must also procure or develop Thermal barrier ceramic coatings of a few microns , Single crystal blades casting and polishing with cooling holes to sustain temperatures of over 2200 deg .Blisks Blings and other critical casting and manufacturing technologies especially special Aluminium titanium , nickel alloys to develop lightweight fan , blades , compressor and turbine parts .

 

[beencensured]

What else can we do but have inferiority complex, since all we have seen is how these DRDO and DPSUs take billions of dollars from our budgets, eat up all the projects, and do nothing?

The French seem to take more, but French wine is among the best?

 

[AK S]

And again, I am sure you won't have any official proof whatsoever to prove the 140 million dollar figure of yours, right? Not even one?

You’d have proof … I’m sure of that.

You can google … you’d find many. It’s not official as yet.

I’d be immensely happy if it is south of $120m.

 

[AK S]

We don't have GaN even now. We don't even have an operational AESA radar. Uttam for Mk1A alone will come in som 3 years. Making a brand new one for Dassault will be even more time consuming.

And totally agree. I wish we had decided in 2015 to make a Tedbf, based on Kaveri engines. We could have given it to Tatas or L&T or a conglomerate. That would have really helped us right now. But alas, some great IITian RM had other ideas.

Not operational as yet. Maybe another year say worst case two. It’s performing better than Israeli Elta radars.

Contracts for GaN TR based radar is out and first instance to be delivered in 9 months by a private sector company. In 3 years, we are likely to have it on first upgraded Su30MKI.

Let’s see.

Take a stand on Kaveri or in general on indigenous engines. If it’s just a piece of metal, then Parikar saheb would approve Tedbf using Kaveri.

Sarcasm apart, Navy want higher thrust and Kaveri, even with the proposed improvements (no one was funding it then) will not suffice. Given his insights, I’d have expected Parikar saheb to green light Kaveri. He didn’t live long … who know what he might have done with Kaveri.

 

[AK S]

Exactly. They have only the capacity to build 12 Rafale per year.

Last year they build far less than that.

 

[Akshat]

And the American are surely better...They will kill your entire industry....and your Tejas will never compete and win some things against their F-16, their are the worst and the F-35 is the final nail to kill everything, only imbecile like PKPRS cannot comprehend that fact. In Europe, 2 countries resists, the Swedish and the French. Your pseudo AK S is to denigrate AKSHAT, like the idiotic clown Sick Sichard, or AKSHIT. You are an arrogant idiot who constantly lie with no moderation, why?

We don’t trust Americans. We certainly trust French more. No doubt. They were on our side during Nuclear test.

Instead of saying I generally lie, be specific. I am happy to be corrected. Akshat is a French propagandist. I can quote a dozen of his lies, mostly in favour of France.

French products are decent. Certainly better than Russian … will not match American top of the line though.

Just that French products are expensive and upgrades and enhancements are super super expensive. Look at the cost of India specific enhancements in Rafale or cost of Mirage upgrades.

Here we see French building false narrative against indigenous products. They would lick the boot of the pay masters (Govt and Armed forces) and bash competition (HAL, DRDO, Russia and even Americans). That’s bad idea if you ask me. You have decent products … sell them on the merits. There is no need to lie. We see your design. Or for that matter, American or Russian ones too.

 

[AK S]

No need of that Trojan Horse. SCAF is coming and the Rafale F5 standard. clown. The French can developp their own stuff.

That you do. Your threat perspective are relatively manageable. Besides, NATO will come to the aid of France with their F35, if there is a need. So you can jump to 6th gen.

 

[AK S]

A flying test would still need a working engine to test on it.

If you have an FTB, finally you’d get to the flying engines too. Otherwise wait for the slot in the Russian FTB and pay an exorbitant price and of course waste precious time.

 

[AK S]

414 engine with GE and 110Kn engine with Safran.... very good arrangement. Each will counterbalance other and keep in check.

Let them happen first.

If any plane flies with Kaveri, both GE and Safran will accommodate our asks. Till then they’d try to retain some kind of leverage.

 

[AK S]

More fake propaganda just to defend the DRDO. I mean, even if you ignore the fact that IAF has specifically said that Mk2 can’t replace MRFA, even though GoI has said in the Parliament that Kaveri won’t be used, even though most of the money for Kaveri was issued before 2000 and you haven’t factored in inflation…at least do the math correctly. ~2100 crores were spent on Kaveri by 2010. The conversion rate that year, on average, was 44. So that alone is about 475 million USD.

I don’t know where you get your figures. You can check wiki. Or go and contest the figures there with references. If you have evidence, they would accept your edits.

I surely understand the difference between Mk2 and Rafale. No pie of Mk2 business is going to France and if successful timely, Mk2 will affect the order size of MRFA. Less likely, but it might even kill it altogether. It establishes GE F414 as the go-to engines and has the potential to supplant Safran for the engine co-development too. Just that we don’t trust Americans enough. Our geopolitical interests may diverge at any point of time.

All in all, Mk2 mortally threatens the French military aviation business in India. And hence the propaganda.

 

[Akshat]

Don’t fall for it, they are liars, they also don’t have the latest engine tech, they are trying to make Rafale faster with indian tax payers money.

It’s a codevelopment project. So not having the latest tech is like a prerequisite. But having the components and experience is required.

 

[Akshat]

Not operational as yet. Maybe another year say worst case two. It’s performing better than Israeli Elta radars.

Contracts for GaN TR based radar is out and first instance to be delivered in 9 months by a private sector company. In 3 years, we are likely to have it on first upgraded Su30MKI.

Let’s see.

Take a stand on Kaveri or in general on indigenous engines. If it’s just a piece of metal, then Parikar saheb would approve Tedbf using Kaveri.

Sarcasm apart, Navy want higher thrust and Kaveri, even with the proposed improvements (no one was funding it then) will not suffice. Given his insights, I’d have expected Parikar saheb to green light Kaveri. He didn’t live long … who know what he might have done with Kaveri.

Performing better than Elta radars, based on whose words? I am sure you won't have anything but some articles based on info from some unnamed DRDO sources, right?

Likely, in the near future, soon...all typical words from DRDO apologists. Tell me when it is inducted.

My stand on Kaveri is very clear. We should have taken assistance from foreign partners to make it work and we should have used it on Mk1A and a twin engine plane based on it. All 3 projects should have gone to someone outside of HAL and DRDO.

And lies. GoI had given a practical blank check to GTRE for making Kaveri work. GTRE just couldn't get it done.

As for Mr. Parrikar, no one knows what he could have done. But as things stand, there was nothing he did that positively impacted our defense establishment. He did damage it to a huge extent though.

 

[Akshat]

You’d have proof … I’m sure of that.

You can google … you’d find many. It’s not official as yet.

I’d be immensely happy if it is south of $120m.

Would have, could have, should have...but as of now you have no proof. Only false accusations on our dear friend France. But you won't accept even official documents against DRDO. Shows where your priorities lies. Surely not with India.

 

[Akshat]

You need tender to join a DRDO? No you don’t. They can hire consultants laterally. No need to appear in the qualification exams too.

DRDO itself is the biggest problem. I am talking about investments by private players on defense R&D. We need tenders for that. No bright mind in his right mind would join DRDO.

 

[Akshat]

The French seem to take more, but French wine is among the best?

At least the French deliver what they promise when they promise. That's worth more than anything else.

 

[Sandeep]

If you have an FTB, finally you’d get to the flying engines too. Otherwise wait for the slot in the Russian FTB and pay an exorbitant price and of course waste precious time.

Before an engine can be flown from a plane they need to make sure that it’s a stable, workable, reliable and safe engine on the ground. Until then an expensive FTB would be lying unused. They have to first pass the tests in high altitude simulated test facilities which we don’t have and what the USA promised to develop in India but they haven’t so far.

 

[Sandeep]

The best deal that we will get is with France. We get to develop a brand new engine from the start, receive 100% of the technology, manufacture 100% in India and with indigenous content. The USA are refusing to give or develop a brand new engine where we get 100% of it and so far RR haven’t been too forth coming about their engine development plan and the details.

So it seems that we are definitely going with France and in about 8 years time our AMCA MK2 can use the engine and replace all other foreign engines when it’s time to replace them on our other jets.

 

[Akshat]

I don’t know where you get your figures. You can check wiki. Or go and contest the figures there with references. If you have evidence, they would accept your edits.

I surely understand the difference between Mk2 and Rafale. No pie of Mk2 business is going to France and if successful timely, Mk2 will affect the order size of MRFA. Less likely, but it might even kill it altogether. It establishes GE F414 as the go-to engines and has the potential to supplant Safran for the engine co-development too. Just that we don’t trust Americans enough. Our geopolitical interests may diverge at any point of time.

All in all, Mk2 mortally threatens the French military aviation business in India. And hence the propaganda.

Which figure do you have an issue with? 2100 crores? Or 44 Rs per dollar?

Absolutely wrong. Mk2 can’t even reduce MRFA by 1 unit. But if Mk2 is delayed, MRFA might kill Mk2 altogether.

As for F414, it is not the co developed engine. The 110 kN engine deal will anyways be signed way before Mk2 is even rolled out, let alone inducted. Most likely, the 110 kN engine will be in manufacturing before Mk2 gets IOC.

All in all, MRFA threatens exposing HAL and hence the propaganda.

 

[Akshat]

If you have an FTB, finally you’d get to the flying engines too. Otherwise wait for the slot in the Russian FTB and pay an exorbitant price and of course waste precious time.

If you have an engine, finally you will get the time in Russia and get the results too. Otherwise keep staring at that FTB without any engine. Decades and billions wasted, and you can waste a few more.

 

[PKPRS]

it only means that new ACM seriously considering LM and Boeing F21 and F18SH jets now since Rafale-M already costs 400 millions usd per unit of jet lifetime costs...

one of the best budget options for GOI, wish we get EF-Typhoon for IAF and F/A-18 for Navy.

 

[PKPRS]

Would have, could have, should have...but as of now you have no proof. Only false accusations on our dear friend France. But you won't accept even official documents against DRDO. Shows where your priorities lies. Surely not with India.

you want better proof than our Indian Naval Cheif, he said Rafale-M F3 base costs $253Mln before any India specific MODS.

 

[Instant Karma]

Absolutely, they depend on German MTU for FCAS Aero engine, all they have is 80’s tech SNECMA M88, which they stole from EJ200.

Exactly. They have only the capacity to build 12 Rafale per year.

 

[PKPRS]

We don't have GaN even now. We don't even have an operational AESA radar. Uttam for Mk1A alone will come in som 3 years. Making a brand new one for Dassault will be even more time consuming.

we do, virupaksha radar is a GaN radar, Indians made it first before you french.