Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) News and Discussion

[Pink Panther]

We should go for Su 75, if Russia manages to rollout and conduct first flight of the plane before 2027, since it's a SEF- it can easily complement AMCA when the later would be ready( mk1- 2033 IOC).

Pak already has 2 options, and they might induct J35 soon. We can't afford to lose the lead to them.

And Idk from where some fag0ts have the confidence to say that Rafales are better than J20s.- If u go on hearing western propaganda, u will end up having this superiority complex too. As of now, I still don't know on what basis is Rafale better than J20

I agree, we can’t keep on waiting for AMCA indefinitely when both our sworn enemies will be operating 5th gen aircraft’s, HAL hasn’t started making Tejas MK1A, it is almost mid 2024 now, they have to make Tejas MK1A and then MK2 and then TEDBF and then AMCA, in the mean time they also need to upgrade MIG-29 to UPG standard and upgrade SU-30 MK’s to Super Sukhoi, can they do it all in 15 years, I am highly doubtful, so we definitely need to operate some foreign 5th gen Aircraft in the interim until AMCA is ready, most probably it will be SU-57.

 

[Pink Panther]

Our rafales though few in numbers are proven system with decades of development and service with a suite of state of the weapon like meteor.

With Rafale’s alone we can’t manage J20 and FC-31, we won’t be adding more than 62 of them 36+ 26 because of the cost.

 

[Pink Panther]

J35 or FC-31 is still lomg way away. It is first going to be inducted by chinese navy, then it would be exported that too in few numbers

They are already Production ready and are proper stealth jets unlike what the western Media says, Chinese started removing Canard's from J20 to make it more stealthy.

 

[Pink Panther]

Difference is that AMCA is using many of the subsystems of Tejas mk2 and TEDBF. we have already developed most of the subsystems. KAAN is an empty shell right now. And it the first time turkey is developing modern fighter. HAL has multi decade experience. I know that I may sound overly optimistic, but I choose to believe in my country. In recent years lots of work has been done to improve infra in defence industry and new manufacturing plants have been set up.

Where is the engine.

 

[Pink Panther]

If a fighter with more than 2 flying prototype is long time away.. What about a fighter that is on paper and is going to be made by an organisation that has a dubious reputation with relaxed approach to work.

Absolutely, AMCA wil take atleast 15 years from now to go to production.

 

[Pink Panther]

AMCA can only be expected to ENTER production post 2035 best case or 2040 worst case. Till that time, IAF will have a 5th gen fighter vacuum. While China will have a 300+ fleet of matured 5th gen fighters (if not more) and even P!6stan will BEG and GET 50-60 5th gen fighters (Chinese).

Right, we can’t wait till 2040 for AMCA, we need to operate some foreign 5 th gen jet in the interim till AMCA is ready.

 

[Pink Panther]

Only Time will tell ,But once Russia start inducting Su-57 and AMCA have time to become mature platform so India can think about it Su-57 is better platform than Su-75. India may buy 3 to 4 sqadron of Su-57.

I am sure it will happen till AMCA becomes a matured platform.

 

[Pink Panther]

What Russia only can do make a production ready Model of Su-75 by 2025 and offer it in MRCA tender in place of MIG-35 or Su-35.. But it is very unlikely

There are more possibilities for SU-57 than SU-75.

 

[Pink Panther]

Not happening. Work hasn't even started on the Su-75 prototype. A first flight is not even planned yet, not to mention all of the testing, the LSP and UA tests, and finally a production-ready version. At the bare minimum, that is a 4-5 year cycle.

Russian’s have everything that is made for SU-57, all will go into SU-75, so SU-75 wouldn’t take anytime at all

 

[Pink Panther]

Only short term solution is to speed up MRFA. Dassault is reeling under orders and will only be too happy to make in India, for India and possibly Gulf too. Maybe 114 can be broken into two, 78 Rafale and 36 SU57, assembled here to maintain balance.

And buy $300Mln 4th gen jet when our enemies on both sides will operate 5th gen jets, it is just too dangerous for us and Rafale offers false confidence.

 

[Pink Panther]

Its pointless to pursue the SU 57. In terms of stealth it is inferior to American and Chinese stealth planes. Western sensors and avionics are far superior to Russian ones. Without significant investment by China or India the SU 57 has no future as Russia on its own lacks the resources to develop it to its full potential. Better to have a strategic partnership with Dassault to manufacture Rafales.

Did you personally check the stealth of SU-57, you are believing what is said on Western media, for the price and stealth SU-57 is much better than Rafale.

 

[Pink Panther]

Projects like AMCA needs to be made national priorities. Teams working on it should be expanded and resources provided without delay.

Only HAL will work on it, they already have plate full of food to eat.

 

[PROVerified member]

India's Self-Reliant Pursuit of the AMCA, Challenges and Progress After FGFA Exit​

India's pursuit of a domestically produced fifth-generation fighter, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), is a tale of ambition, setbacks, and renewed determination.

Initially envisioned as a collaborative project with Russia, its evolution underscores the nation's growing emphasis on self-reliance in defense technology.

The Seeds of Collaboration​

The AMCA program traces its roots back to 2008, when the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) received initial backing for the project. However, India sought to accelerate development through international partnership.

In 2007, India joined forces with Russia under the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) program, aiming to co-develop a stealth fighter derived from the Su-57 platform.

Diverging Paths​

The FGFA collaboration faced obstacles as the Indian Air Force (IAF) grew concerned about the Su-57's limitations. Specifically, doubts emerged regarding the platform's engine performance and its ability to meet India's stealth requirements.

Moreover, the rising prominence of the "Make in India" initiative in 2014 highlighted a fundamental clash between collaborative reliance and the push for self-sufficiency. These factors culminated in India's official withdrawal from the FGFA program in 2018.

Navigating a Solo Path​

Exiting the FGFA meant India now shouldered the AMCA's development independently.

While this granted full control over the aircraft's design, it presented the ADA with the formidable task of developing crucial technologies without collaborative support.

This strategic shift inevitably caused delays, but resolute progress followed.

The AMCA's Preliminary Design Review (PDR), completed in December 2021, signified a major achievement. February 2023 saw another landmark moment with the successful completion of the Critical Design Review (CDR) for all AMCA systems. In March 2024, a green light for prototype development further underscored the project's forward momentum.

Challenges and Resolve​

Designing and manufacturing a fifth-generation fighter jet is a monumental undertaking, even for well-established aerospace powers. India's path is not without its hurdles; critical areas such as engine development and refining true stealth characteristics remain complex challenges.

The AMCA project, however, stands as a symbol of India's unwavering drive towards indigenous defense manufacturing. If successful, the AMCA will not only enhance the nation's air power but will also validate India's growing position as a major player in the development of advanced military technology.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Where is the engine.

We have already signed deal for 414 ToT and have few engines already for the prototypes. We would have already started engine production, by the time we start mass production of these aircraft.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

They are already Production ready and are proper stealth jets unlike what the western Media says, Chinese started removing Canard's from J20 to make it more stealthy.

I am not talking about J20. FC-31 is still long way away from being inducted by pakistan. Even after J-20 started production, it took china half a decade to fix its issues.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Now this is what you call being overly optimistic: J 35 was seen in production ready final config( PLA Navy) just a few days ago.( I think u haven't seen that news- so at most 2029 for J31, right!?

I am being optimistic for India and being pessimistic about China, turkey and Pakistan. I have given reasons for all. It is upto you to believe what you want.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

I think bad experience with FGFA program may be the reason why India is hesitant to join Tempest program or other joint 6th gen fighter development program. India wants to have full control over the project. and IAF is a picky customer, it wants products that are well suited to india specific conditions. Also, these joint development projects like tempest dont have good record. Korean semi 5th gen program had indonesia as partener, and there were lots of issues there. F35 is the only success I can think of and it had its own cost overruns and delays.

 

[Anant]

I think bad experience with FGFA program may be the reason why India is hesitant to join Tempest program or other joint 6th gen fighter development program. India wants to have full control over the project. and IAF is a picky customer, it wants products that are well suited to india specific conditions. Also, these joint development projects like tempest dont have good record. Korean semi 5th gen program had indonesia as partener, and there were lots of issues there. F35 is the only success I can think of and it had its own cost overruns and delays.

Not quite. Many multi-national developmental projects have been successful, albeit back in the 20th century. Three examples are the Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguar, the Anglo-Italo-German Pana via Tornado, and the Anglo-Italo-German-Spanish Eurofighter Typhoon. The GCAP project seems to be proceeding well, and the FCAS project is also proceeding, albeit at a slower pace.

Multi-national projects are hard to pull off, and of course you need to compromise, but they a failure there is an exception rather than the norm.

 

[MANIVANNAN N]

Only those who having huge money will go alone. More money needed
for creating Manufacturing infra etc. No body ready to invest. All govt fund. So risk only for people. Now only govt rduces gas, oil prices to get middle class vote. But it is too late. Careful funding important.

 

[Anant]

Russian’s have everything that is made for SU-57, all will go into SU-75, so SU-75 wouldn’t take anytime at all

It won't, unless Russia is willing to invest a fair amount of resources and time into the aircraft. That won't happen unless they have guaranteed orders, or atleast a lot of interest.

Moreover, they can have all the stuff ready, but they still need to put it together and ensure it all works together, and then ensure everything works to the customers' satisfaction. That is what I wrote.

 

[MANIVANNAN N]

The core component of jet is engine. That with stealth capabilities possible by Ada? Then how heat signature will be reduced? Us. More advanced in engine tech. Just fund getting not enough. Build stealthy engine. Any details in critical review about engine. No. Only partial success possible.

 

[beencensured]

The core component of jet is engine. That with stealth capabilities possible by Ada? Then how heat signature will be reduced? Us. More advanced in engine tech. Just fund getting not enough. Build stealthy engine. Any details in critical review about engine. No. Only partial success possible.

First make f-22 with stealth engine.

 

[desigandu]

Russia has been a friend for decades and India must not turn its back on Russia...Russia will continue as a military supplier but mostly for spares, upgrades, MRO etc...India will also continue to rely on Russia for energy, Artic access, nuclear energy, space tech and geopolitical support...Nevertheless, we all know that most Russian technology (especially sensors, avionics, stealth etc...) are behind what the US typically fields (F-22s, F-35s, AH-64s, MQ-9s), and in the past we did not have much of a choice, but now mostly we have access (France, US etc...) and our military-industrial-R&D complex has been a focus with atmanirbharta (AMCA, Project-Alpha etc...), therefore we must invest on our own homegrown capabilities (while only acquiring cutting edge that we really need now/can't build domestically) to become a military superpower.

 

[MANIVANNAN N]

Amca no need joint development. Then why crying for joint development of engine with Safran. Built it own.

 

[beencensured]

I think bad experience with FGFA program may be the reason why India is hesitant to join Tempest program or other joint 6th gen fighter development program. India wants to have full control over the project. and IAF is a picky customer, it wants products that are well suited to india specific conditions. Also, these joint development projects like tempest dont have good record. Korean semi 5th gen program had indonesia as partener, and there were lots of issues there. F35 is the only success I can think of and it had its own cost overruns and delays.

F-35 has 58% availability time and high cost of maintenance which are it's flaws.

 

[desigandu]

Not quite. Many multi-national developmental projects have been successful, albeit back in the 20th century. Three examples are the Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguar, the Anglo-Italo-German Pana via Tornado, and the Anglo-Italo-German-Spanish Eurofighter Typhoon. The GCAP project seems to be proceeding well, and the FCAS project is also proceeding, albeit at a slower pace.

Multi-national projects are hard to pull off, and of course you need to compromise, but they a failure there is an exception rather than the norm.

Agree...But India must think what after AMCA (at least start thinking and build a future looking team) and start work before 2030...Evaluating GCAP might not be a bad option if India can have equity, workshare, TOT and ability to manufacture domestically...Between Japan and UK there is a lot of capability (India will get a lot of geopolitical benefits), and 6th Gen planes will require lots of capital and R&D, especially around variable cycle engines...Yes, it will increase our dependencies, but given AMCA will operationalize (fully) in 2035-2040, we should not wait till 2035 to start thinking about what next...Currently, only the US and potentially China have the military budgets to go it alone, along with the R&D base, to fund billions into future programs, thus we need to be smart, opportunistic and collaborative, and seriously evaluate GCAP (of course Japan+UK+Italy need to play ball).

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

F-35 has 58% availability time and high cost of maintenance which are it's flaws.

Yeah, but I recently read that they are going to increase it to bring up to F-16 level. They have a lot of experience with maintaining 5th gen aircraft, so I guess that they have figured out all issues now

 

[sanket]

I think bad experience with FGFA program may be the reason why India is hesitant to join Tempest program or other joint 6th gen fighter development program. India wants to have full control over the project. and IAF is a picky customer, it wants products that are well suited to india specific conditions. Also, these joint development projects like tempest dont have good record. Korean semi 5th gen program had indonesia as partener, and there were lots of issues there. F35 is the only success I can think of and it had its own cost overruns and delays.

Even if India jin either of project(FCAS /Tempest) it will have Limitation in Building eco-system some systems & weapons have to b imported AMCA MK2 going to b upgraded 6th Gen Stealth Fighter jet.apart from Engine India have started Most of the system developing . who ever joins with India for developing Aero-Engine will benefit in cost .France may b like to grab this opportunity with India and develop a common platform for FCAS & AMCA . and same power plant may b replace for Indian Rafales too.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Not quite. Many multi-national developmental projects have been successful, albeit back in the 20th century. Three examples are the Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguar, the Anglo-Italo-German Pana via Tornado, and the Anglo-Italo-German-Spanish Eurofighter Typhoon. The GCAP project seems to be proceeding well, and the FCAS project is also proceeding, albeit at a slower pace.

Multi-national projects are hard to pull off, and of course you need to compromise, but they a failure there is an exception rather than the norm.

I think the main motivation for these is reduced costs. But you sacrifice control over the project. There are also security concerns regardimg sensitive info. I think france has participate in many joint projects for all 3 services but it has pulled out of most.

 

[MANIVANNAN N]

So 6 prototypes 1.5 billion
Manufacturing infra 1.5 billion
Joint engine development 2 billion
Is it india afford this. Think about people first. Then automatically move to joint development.