Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) News and Discussion

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

HAL received clearance to utilise tejas mk-2 funds a month ago and yet you blame them. Without money they cannot do anything. As funds got delayed so was the rollout date.

Thats because they frittered away the previous funds without delivering what they were supposed to deliver.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

I blame HAL for a lot of things but when it comes to LCA mk2, there have been almost no error by their side till now:
CCS approval of LCA mk2: Sep 2022
CDR conformance: Late 2021
PDR conformance : mid 2019.
In any case HAL can't rollout the fighter in 2023.
Also, about the engine clause, funds were almost a year delayed after the approval.

If we go by this way, then the rollout dates comes to later 2026-27; still sources say rollout would be around mid next year

Nope they bear responsibility because Tejas MK2 prototype fabrication was originally slated for 2023 but then postponed to 20024 and then again deferred for 2025. Even with revised timeline, they were expected to get the prototype fabrication done in 2024, but now that is impossible. So they cant escape the responsibility by shifting blame.

What people tend to forget is that flight testing typically lasts for 5-7 years. So, if a fighter prototype enters flight testing in 2027 as against the original plan of 2025, why do u think they will complete it? That's right, even most optimistically it will be at least 2032-35 before it can successfully complete flight trials. Then assuming our bureaucracy immediately places an order (which itself is doubtful), it would take at least 3-3.5 years to organize production and commence aircraft deliveries. Hence t would be 2038, even by most optimistic standards and that's assuming HAL does not run into any issues. Now couple that with the famed actual production rate of HAL, the deliveries are likely to last well beyond 2040, by which time most of the avionics around which the aircraft was designed would have become obsolete, and yet HAL would still be producing them just to prolong work. That is the true state of HAL!

 

[bonito]

HAL had no freedom. First, it was under pressure of privatisation by the government due to lobbying by the private sector companies. Than government withdraw its cash reserves and HAL had to take loans from SBI to pay salaries. Than there was fight between HAL, ADA and DRDO over the design changes made by HAL on Tejas.
Then there was pressure from government to hand over the manufacturing of Tejas fighters parts to private sector companies which delayed the Tejas programme by 5 years. Those private sector companies selected to manufacturing of parts of Tejas were to be trained and handfed by HAL at its own cost. Technology transferred to private companies.
The parts manufactured by the private sector companies were not up to the mark and HAL had to manufacture them in house.

What do you think, Supplier education and quality upgrade is inherent part of is Supplier management. You need to educate, train them to get desired level of quality. If you don't know just for car production this is being done. IP rings was trained and new machines were imported to produce 0.8 mm washers . Then think of a highly technical complex product like fighter jet requires.

 

[bonito]

Why are Tata, Adani not contributing here if they are so nationalist

They are already invested and providing jobs to a million people directly . You don't need to invest another thousand of crores to prove nationalism.
This 3rd world country is a far worse than Banana republic suddenly it will turn extreme socialist and seize all the assets just like they did earlier. Just 2 yrs ago without much evidence communists closed a company which generated a whopping 400,000 Metric Tonnes Per Annum capacity Sterlite industries making India a net importer of copper. This is the respect a country gives for strategic companies. Why should anyone invest ?

 

[Ashutosh]

What has changed is that for once, HAL has been forced to offload fabrication of fuselage, wing segments, and wiring harness, subsystems to private contractors, rather than doing it themselves and then quote an ungodly amount of man-hours for pricing the aircraft.

Bro fabrication comes later. What is the project's approval date by GOI!?
Sep 2022, so how is everything supposed to be completed before 2025!?

Just easy common sense 😉

 

[Bhaskar Ambekar]

First HAL should try to deliver existing orders on time and stop boasting itself that it will manufacture everything in its own complex

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Bro fabrication comes later. What is the project's approval date by GOI!?
Sep 2022, so how is everything supposed to be completed before 2025!?

Just easy common sense 😉

Though it was formally approved in September 2022, the CDR was already complete in 2021, which indicates the project continued to receive funding on with an informal funding arrangement.

 

[Instant Karma]

Stop misinformation, the government did not hand over the manufacturing of Tejas fighters to private sector. HAL is still responsible for the final assembly of Tejas. What has changed is that for once, HAL has been forced to offload fabrication of fuselage, wing segments, and wiring harness, subsystems to private contractors, rather than doing it themselves and then quote an ungodly amount of man-hours for pricing the aircraft. Which is the correct and proper way. For the first time in their lives HAL has been forced to start learning modern supply chain management and undertake vendor management. A job ISRO has been doing far successfully than HAL.

Junior Ambani was lobbying for the privatisation of HAL. Manufacturing of sub systems by private companies has increased the cost of Tejas.

 

[Instant Karma]

You are woefully off the mark.
It is not about the vacant lands at all.
It is about the existing production facilities where it can manufacture AMCA with private companies.
No private company want to be under the thumb of HAL.

Why will HAL cooperate with private companies?

 

[Instant Karma]

Bro tune desh ke lie khud kabhi kuch donate kiya hai!?
Usne to kitni baar charity di hai...

The money Ambani has is Indian public money.

 

[Ashutosh]

The money Ambani has is Indian public money.

"The money shopkeeper has is my money"
Ur statement sounds something like that.....

Ambani has money because he gives services. Forget everything take Jio only, one of the largest telecom and ISP networks online in Asia.

 

[Sandeep]

One of the main reasons for the closure of the plant was the high level of pollution and contamination around the area. In the end they have made significant improvement in reducing the pollution levels but now those same people who were protesting to close it are now protesting to open the plant again as most of the people have no jobs.

The uneducated or poorly educated people are easily misled and react to gossip and rumours rather than clear and well reasoned facts and evidence. The main reason for the high pollution level was down to dust and vehicle emissions as the pollution levels still remained at similar levels even when the factory was operating

The private sector would need to invest a huge amount of money to open a factory and refineries which is expensive as existing government facilities already operate on a large scale. Another issue is that they would need to meet the pollution requirements which changes state to state and then you have legal or court cases on whether the centre or state has jurisdiction in deciding the appropriate pollution levels.

 

[Akshat]

Private sector too has to Invest , they just interested in profits.if India is Going to become Atmanirbhar in Aero-Sector. Pvt can also involve in MRO Facility this is another opportunity.

And that exactly is the strength of private sector/capitalism. Profits. Give them profit and they will do anything for you. If you want them to work for free, then you will get DPSU like results only. Not to mention, HAL and ADA are not letting them participate as per ex-ACM.

 

[Sandeep]

Why will HAL cooperate with private companies?

The private sector can cooperate with HAL because it saves them from having to buy new land, passing all local regulations, providing certificates, power connections etc which all takes time. But if you use HAL'S land and setup or expand the production facilities then it spares the private sector from making those expensive purchases. It's a win win solution.

 

[Akshat]

Private sector companies are not interested. They want readymade products just like C 295 by TATA and M4 by kalyani and K9 by L&T. They only want to assemble and do screwdriving jobs. They don't have the mental capacity and strength to do such technological advanced projects.

Oh they are interested. As per ACM Bhadoria, HAL and ADA are not letting them participate. HAL is afraid that they will get exposed like OFB.

 

[Akshat]

I blame HAL for a lot of things but when it comes to LCA mk2, there have been almost no error by their side till now:
CCS approval of LCA mk2: Sep 2022
CDR conformance: Late 2021
PDR conformance : mid 2019.
In any case HAL can't rollout the fighter in 2023.
Also, about the engine clause, funds were almost a year delayed after the approval.

If we go by this way, then the rollout dates comes to later 2026-27; still sources say rollout would be around mid next year

The entire blame for Mk2 lies with HAL. Funds were granted in 2020 as per HAL chief and they blew it all and went back with a bowl to CCS for more funds. No delay was there due to engine issue either. HAL just burned 1000s of crores as per HAL chief.

 

[DMS]

Why screw driver kings Adani, Ambani, TATA, Mahindra, LT not ready for SPV partner???

even after so many sweet deals from Gov they wont invest 1 rs in RD???

Go and read Snakes in Ganga by Rajeev Malhotra, whom these dalas of Cronies funding in west, [Hint It is not good for our Nation].
I am for privatization , but letting MSME/STartups lead the charge instead of Cronies, allow PSUs act as
final assembler for large project.

look at New Space, AstraMicrowave , AgniKul,Ethereal Machine and i can continue.
It is only HMT and startup Ethereal Machine who make 5 Axis Machine tools in India,
where Tatas were sleeping?

 

[Akshat]

What makes u think that!?
😅
By going with this logic, AMCA wasn't on a comma for a year until CCS recently approved it right!?

HAL chief’s own public admission. And no, it wasn’t on comma. They approved it in under a year(AMCA).

 

[Akshat]

Bro fabrication comes later. What is the project's approval date by GOI!?
Sep 2022, so how is everything supposed to be completed before 2025!?

Just easy common sense 😉

As per HAL chief, 2019/2020.

 

[Akshat]

Are u serious? HAL had all the freedom with LCA MK2 and were originally scheduled to roll out the prototype in 2023 but that later turned to 2024 and then to 2025. Similarly, they were originally slated to start test trials by 2025 but now they are likely to only commence in 2027. They had a very narrow window of opportunity where the induction of LCA MK2 made any pragmatic sense. Yet they blew it spectacularly. Its been painfully obvious for industry analysts for a while that the AMCA program has been delayed beyond measure and even the AMCA MK1, which is expected to be a 4-4.5 generation fighter will not see service anytime before 2037-40.

Jaha blame hoga waha karege

 

[Akshat]

What he is saying is the truth. Just go and clarify urself by seeing the official approval date.

No it’s not

 

[DMS]

We need to push for more MSME/Startup culture in deep tech,bring IISC and existing IIT to top 100 in world, increase more Tier 2 Engineering COlleges like NIT and bring them to todays IIT Bombay IISC Standard. Their no other way, without proper academia their no industry. Taiwan smaller than most states in India have more world class universities than all of India

 

[sky-high]

India should not copy western design, even if it's homegrown..

For example, Tejas nose cone kevlar can totally permeate mmw radar signals.. think about regular aerodynamic shaped skins nade of it, and internal layer (say lightweight thin zigzaged copper filaments) at desired shape reflection 45* angle) would result in better stealth

 

[bonito]

One of the main reasons for the closure of the plant was the high level of pollution and contamination around the area. In the end they have made significant improvement in reducing the pollution levels but now those same people who were protesting to close it are now protesting to open the plant again as most of the people have no jobs.

The uneducated or poorly educated people are easily misled and react to gossip and rumours rather than clear and well reasoned facts and evidence. The main reason for the high pollution level was down to dust and vehicle emissions as the pollution levels still remained at similar levels even when the factory was operating

The private sector would need to invest a huge amount of money to open a factory and refineries which is expensive as existing government facilities already operate on a large scale. Another issue is that they would need to meet the pollution requirements which changes state to state and then you have legal or court cases on whether the centre or state has jurisdiction in deciding the appropriate pollution levels.

All those are fake stories. If it was any to do with pollution, why did NGT nod for expansion program ? NGT even permitted to reopen the plant.
All the protest was from Christian lobby, 20000 people marched from Snow shine Basilica to ghero the collectorate.

 

[ABHIJIT APSINGIKAR]

Junior Ambani was lobbying for the privatisation of HAL. Manufacturing of sub systems by private companies has increased the cost of Tejas.

On the contrary it has drastically cut down the man hours and thus has compelled HAL to start quoting realistic price estimates. What it did indeed cut down was HAL ability to fleece the government by quoting absurd prices for their aircraft.