Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) News and Discussion

[Akshat]

Based on how many mods IAF wanted and how much time it takes for them to do and how much time IAF takes to test all the mods and asking for more mods and the time taking to do it all again before delivering any jet.

Based on an unnamed source, right? Please tell me, won’t making the mods and testing them require additional funds? Has MoD approved any such proposal? Not to mention, HAL management said in its last results call that they plan to deliver 8 trainers in the last fiscal year and all 18 this year. Where was even the scope for any mk1a after that? All proof that this modification news is just HAL drama to escape blame.

 

[shivkumar sinha]

Are you proposing of summary execution of those government officials??? Without trial because we just see it as treasonous act without proper evidence why they opposing to further continue AMCA???
If that's the case, wow China and other communist countries will clapping us and congratulations because we're becoming like their government 😹😹😹😹
I love our Wadafaq version of DEMOCRACY we have if that it🤭🙃

Democracy, rule of law will survive only if Bharat survives .I am of the firm view that anybody creating hurdles in the way of sensitive projects like AMCA,jet engine are traitors and deserves harsh punishment. Have u heard how some hardened criminals are eliminated in fake or real encounter? These traitors are a notch above those criminals. Then what is harm in getting rid of some of them?

 

[shivkumar sinha]

Bruh your confuse ADA/HAL is very too late for AMCA... They focus too much on many projects like Tejas, orca, TEDBF, AMCA and many more that's why most of the project got delayed now the MRFA procurement is like delay tooo without any exact decision until next election IMHO.... How can you see if they can develop AMCA faster when they are not working faster because of tight funding.... If we want AMCA we should spend more funding than hating other people comment that because we already see it's coming.... AMCA is so late we need another plan.... Or are you like those people malding and still coping because your ultranationalistic view got shattered by the current reality that we on the edge of loosing more our air force capabilities because of so many delay projects.... We are still luck at least HAL can deliver a very small batch of Tejas mk1a 😹😹😹

I differ from your view . ADA,HAL may have lot of shortcomings. There are other ways to improve their working or even to reorganize them. Private participants can be enhanced. Many of these things are already underway. But AMCA is non negotiable. This has to be done. I know there are many guys in this forum who love to completely discount DRDO ,ADA ,HAL and praise the Chinese junks that never saw any real conflict. I certainly differ from them and believe in the capabilities of our own people.

 

[SuvarPakisareHomos]

If you dont spend others will have advantage over us. Spend now...to spend less later on. Because costs will continue to rise. Get AMCA done ASAP....dont delay. Bite the bullet and get the job done. Dont listen to these losers.

 

[Pad UwU]

I differ from your view . ADA,HAL may have lot of shortcomings. There are other ways to improve their working or even to reorganize them. Private participants can be enhanced. Many of these things are already underway. But AMCA is non negotiable. This has to be done. I know there are many guys in this forum who love to completely discount DRDO ,ADA ,HAL and praise the Chinese junks that never saw any real conflict. I certainly differ from them and believe in the capabilities of our own people.

Nah I don't see them want to reorganize their group.... If what said come true they should already did that when they see that their efforts on projects goes slowdown and delayed.... It's better to focus more weapons that has realistic timeline delivery not lingering in fantasy bruh.... Are you but hurt we praise the Chinese jets just because they achieve what their main purpose???🧐🤔 Get some help bruh and touch some grass, we only give credits were it's due. And most of us who are not bias always reminding in comment that we should always be vigilant because Chinese advancement is alarming.... While our own is always flagged with delay

 

[Pad UwU]

Democracy, rule of law will survive only if Bharat survives .I am of the firm view that anybody creating hurdles in the way of sensitive projects like AMCA,jet engine are traitors and deserves harsh punishment. Have u heard how some hardened criminals are eliminated in fake or real encounter? These traitors are a notch above those criminals. Then what is harm in getting rid of some of them?

Democracy is understanding of mutual respect of law and equivalent trade.... Only India can survive tru unity not division just because race or religion.... If you want to kill those bureaucrats without proper investigation your not different from dictator or communist like North Korea and China bruh

 

[shivkumar sinha]

Nah I don't see them want to reorganize their group.... If what said come true they should already did that when they see that their efforts on projects goes slowdown and delayed.... It's better to focus more weapons that has realistic timeline delivery not lingering in fantasy bruh.... Are you but hurt we praise the Chinese jets just because they achieve what their main purpose???🧐🤔 Get some help bruh and touch some grass, we only give credits were it's due. And most of us who are not bias always reminding in comment that we should always be vigilant because Chinese advancement is alarming.... While our own is always flagged with delay

How can you say without any evidence that chinese jets have achieved their main purpose? Are you a Chinese paid troll engaged in misinformation? Then ask your master to try their 6th generation fighters across LAC and see their complete decimation .

 

[Pad UwU]

How can you say without any evidence that chinese jets have achieved their main purpose? Are you a Chinese paid troll engaged in misinformation? Then ask your master to try their 6th generation fighters across LAC and see their complete decimation .

Your just blinded of reality.... Their main purpose is to develop their own so called 5gen aircraft and that's the j20 simple as that.... You on the other is a fffreak who can't grasp on what's the difference of reality and dream.... You act like those terrorist from middle east always pointing blames and accusations to others then crying as a victim of society 😹😹😹...
How on earth would those chingchongs communist pay me if I make fun of them somewhere if they make epic failures 🤭🙃....
Your one of those payed ultranationalist bias that act sometimes like Nazi's 😹😹😹

 

[shivkumar sinha]

Your just blinded of reality.... Their main purpose is to develop their own so called 5gen aircraft and that's the j20 simple as that.... You on the other is a fffreak who can't grasp on what's the difference of reality and dream.... You act like those terrorist from middle east always pointing blames and accusations to others then crying as a victim of society 😹😹😹...
How on earth would those chingchongs communist pay me if I make fun of them somewhere if they make epic failures 🤭🙃....
Your one of those payed ultranationalist bias that act sometimes like Nazi's 😹😹😹

I am glad if you are not a CCP troll . But I will again want to repeat some of basic realities currently existing between IAF and PLAAF. PLAAF operates only about 4-5 airbases on 4000+ metre high Tibetan plateau capable of hosting only 200-250 PLA fighters that can support operations across LAC in comparison to 25 airbases at near sea level from Indian side that can host all 600-700 IAF fighters. IAF fighters can fly with full load of fuel and armaments in comparison to only 50% load of pka fighters in rarefied air of 5000 metres high Tibetan plateau. Targets on Indian side are protected in mountain shadows while chinese targets are all open in flat plateau. PLA pilots are widely known to be ill trained fighting for communist party unlike their Indian counterparts who are one of the best pilots in the world ,take part in training with best airforces and above all fight for their motherland . If you combine all the above factors,IAF currently has about 3:1 air superiority against PLAAF. Yes PLA is trying to bridge some of the gaps like in training, infrastructure but IAF is not sitting idle . In Himalayas,IAF will continue to maintain edge over PLAAF in coming decades . With the chinese economy going south, Indian GDP rising at record rate ., Bharat is well expected to surpass chinese in all aspects including technology,productions , exports and more .

 

[PROVerified member]

Development Risks Hinder Private Investment in AMCA Project​

India's quest to develop a technologically advanced indigenous fighter jet through the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program faces a significant challenge: attracting robust private sector participation.

While the AMCA holds the promise of boosting India's defence capabilities and technological prowess, private companies remain hesitant due to substantial development risks.

Understanding the Risk Factor​

At the heart of private sector reluctance lies a fundamental concern: risk sharing. Companies make investment decisions based on a thorough assessment of potential returns against the risks involved.

In the AMCA's case, the development risk – the possibility of delays, cost overruns, and the aircraft not meeting its ambitious technological goals – looms large. This risk is amplified due to the project's structure, spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

This setup means private companies would have limited influence over critical aspects of the development process, making it harder for them to control and mitigate these risks. For profit-driven entities, this uncertainty can significantly undermine the investment's attractiveness.

Unpacking the Development Risk​

The development risk associated with the AMCA project has several dimensions:

• Timeline Slippage: Delays are a common occurrence in complex defence projects. For private companies, delays directly translate into a reduced return on investment (ROI) as costs remain fixed or increase while revenue generation is pushed further into the future.
• Cost Overruns: If a project's budget spirals out of control, it directly impacts the bottom line of private investors. The aerospace sector, particularly the development of cutting-edge military platforms, is notorious for cost overruns.
• Technological Shortcomings: The AMCA is envisioned as a fifth-generation-plus aircraft with advanced features. If it falls short of these performance targets, it could result in lower demand, further diminishing potential returns for private players.

Navigating the Risk Landscape​

Given these risk factors, it's understandable why private companies might be more comfortable entering the AMCA program as suppliers of specific components or subsystems.

This role allows for focused expertise and more predictable revenue streams while minimizing exposure to the larger development uncertainties.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) aims to implement a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) model for AMCA's long-term manufacturing, envisioning greater private sector involvement. However, the success of this model hinges on the government's ability to address risk-related concerns.

Potential Solutions and Future Outlook​

To pave the way for robust private sector partnership in AMCA, India's MoD and project leaders may need to explore:

• Risk Sharing Mechanisms: Develop equitable risk-sharing agreements where the government and private entities shoulder a portion of the development risk, making the project more financially viable for the private sector.
• Clearly Defined Milestones: Establish a detailed roadmap with well-defined, achievable milestones to minimize delays and inspire confidence.
• Transparent Cost Management: Implement rigorous and transparent cost management protocols to prevent overruns and provide accountability.
• Incentivization: Consider offering incentives, such as tax breaks or preferential procurement, to encourage private sector investment.

By addressing these concerns, India has the potential to unlock the expertise and resources of the private sector, potentially accelerating AMCA's development and ensuring the success of this crucial national program.

 

[Kira]

This issue will cease to exist if HAL alongside other PSUs are privatised.

 

[sanket]

Pvt Players Only wants Return Nothing Else , HAL is doing Good Job whatever IAF demand they do in Minimum Charge.Moral of the story Pvt players are More interested in Pure Screw Driver Tech.where profit is sure shot. They dont want R&D work Just Become Vendor and Supply that component.

 

[Deepak Hegde]

Just shows how DRDO and HAL have been operating in development, without having or giving clear estimation of technology involved, without clear milestones, opaque cost management, timelines slippages. The taxpayer has had to pay continuously for all this. No sane private player will want to engage on such terms without any assurance!

 

[Deepak Hegde]

Pvt Players Only wants Return Nothing Else , HAL is doing Good Job whatever IAF demand they do in Minimum Charge.Moral of the story Pvt players are More interested in Pure Screw Driver Tech.where profit is sure shot. They dont want R&D work Just Become Vendor and Supply that component.

The only good job HAL has been doing is fooling MOD and taxpayers. The returns from HAL are a pittance of the funds embezzled by them to fuel their inefficiency!

 

[sanket]

Just shows how DRDO and HAL have been operating in development, without having or giving clear estimation of technology involved, without clear milestones, opaque cost management, timelines slippages. The taxpayer has had to pay continuously for all this. No sane private player will want to engage on such terms without any assurance!

Just shows how DRDO & HAL have been operating in development. compare to other world class established players . development cost of AMCA stealth Fightr plane to other steath Fighter projects. Both DRDO & HAL are saving Funds by developing Tech with minimun Funds compared to other world Experience & Established players.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Finally an article which has the gall to say that king has no clothes on.

No private player would want to share risk with ADA/HAL knowing their work culture and total disregard for accountability.

But, if the Government is so hell-bent on soothing DPSU's (Union's) underbeyy, they they should seriously consider a multi SPV approach towards the AMCA project. Instead of one vendor leading the project, let there be a team led by DPSUs and another consortium led by Private contractors and then have both team utilize the SPV to come out with their respective product prototypes. Ultimately let IAF evaluate both prototypes and the projects and select the winning contender.

We will get to see if our desi babus have any creativity left on managing such critical nation-building projects in future.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Both DRDO & HAL are saving Funds by developing Tech with minimun Funds

Can't say the same for DRDO which actually develops some promising stuff, HAL for sure is not saving any money by developing products after excruciating delays compared to other world Experience & Established players.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Finally an article which has the gall to say that king has no clothes on.

No private player would want to share risk with ADA/HAL knowing their work culture and total disregard for accountability.

But, if the Government is so hell-bent on soothing DPSU's (Union's) underbeyy, they they should seriously consider a multi SPV approach towards the AMCA project. Instead of one vendor leading the project, let there be a team led by DPSUs and another consortium led by Private contractors and then have both team utilize the SPV to come out with their respective product prototypes. Ultimately let IAF evaluate both prototypes and the projects and select the winning contender.

We will get to see if our desi babus have any creativity left on managing such critical nation-building projects in future.

What you are suggesting is the american model. Bro, in order to do that you need an incredible amount of money.

Did you read the article? Private companies are hesitant to join SPV because of financial risk. What you are suggesting is that they build a prototype to compete with a different prototype, and best one wins. This is hugely risky, as if their prototype gets rejected they will suffer losses, which is exactly what they dont want.

This is most brain dead suggestion for indian context.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Pvt Players Only wants Return Nothing Else

Yeah, but I am certain, aap aise nahin hain. You dont care for returns when you give away loans to your dear friends. You don't even ask your money back. You donate at least 10% of your income for social causes. You allow every needy to borrow your vehicle and often take in homeless into your house and feed the hungry. Aap desh mei social service ki sirf aek misaal hi nahin aek bahut achche insaan bhi ho.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

This is hugely risky, as if their prototype gets rejected they will suffer losses, which is exactly what they dont want.

Where is that written in the entire article?

Did you read the article? Private companies are hesitant to join SPV because of financial risk.

Did you read the article?
It clearly mentions that private company do not want to share risk emanating out of project being led by HAL and ADA.

 

[BnglrTester]

This issue will cease to exist if HAL alongside other PSUs are privatised.

Then HAL will start producing consumer goods instead of aircrafts. We should realise that aerospace is not that lucrative for private players.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

In P75I also, foreign companies were hesitant to participate because of liability(risk) reasons. But eventually policy was reworked to assuage their concerns and now P75I is going well.

Something similar can be done in this case. There can be tweaks in the policy, so that govt takes some of the risk that right now private players have to deal with. I believe that a slution will be found. We still have some time as serial production is still far away.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Then HAL will start producing consumer goods instead of aircrafts. We should realise that aerospace is not that lucrative for private players.

Woh Tata TASL, Mahindra Aerospace and Adani defence & Aerspace are invsetments into making making toasters and frying pans in their factories.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Where is that written in the entire article?

Did you read the article?
It clearly mentions that private company do not want to share risk emanating out of project being led by HAL and ADA.

The entire article is about them not wanting financial risk. Private companies want to reduce the risk, they also lack expertise to build a fighter jet. What you are suggesting is that they build a prototype for 5th gen fighter and compete with HAL and friends for defence contract. That is like asking a 10th class student coding enthusiast to compete with a google software developer.

Spending all that time and money developing a prototype 5th gen fighter, when you lack expertise and you are asked to compete for contracts with an established juggernaut...... you dont think it is INSANELY risky?

 

[Pink Panther]

This issue will cease to exist if HAL alongside other PSUs are privatised.

Then that private company will become like HAL, work cultures will never change.

 

[Apocalypse gupta]

Where is that written in the entire article?

Did you read the article?
It clearly mentions that private company do not want to share risk emanating out of project being led by HAL and ADA.

No, that is not what article says. It says that private companies dont want a situation where HAL and ADA are incharge of everything, while private players are the ones putting in money. It says that if private players ars going to put money then they want a seat in decision making table. And that risk should be shared between private players, and HAL, ADA. Right now what is being proposed puts the entire risk on private players while HAL and ADA make the decisions.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Spending all that time and money developing a prototype 5th gen fighter, when you lack expertise and you are asked to compete for contracts with an established juggernaut...... you dont think it is INSANELY risky?

Haan bhai, HAL has been making 5th and 6th gen aircraft since ages and have an impeccable record of delivering everything on-time without delays.

HAL Tejas, HAL IJT, HAL MTA are all examples where HAL has delivered projected platforma on time.

Way I see it, depending on HAL alone for the future of aeronautical Industry in India is the biggest risk the nation is taking. Allowing private players to come up with their design and expertise is called risk hedging, not risk taking.

 

[charminar_waale_ismail_bhai]

Then that private company will become like HAL, work cultures will never change.

Hahahaha. A private company like HAL would shut shop withing a month.

 

[Akshat]

In P75I also, foreign companies were hesitant to participate because of liability(risk) reasons. But eventually policy was reworked to assuage their concerns and now P75I is going well.

Something similar can be done in this case. There can be tweaks in the policy, so that govt takes some of the risk that right now private players have to deal with. I believe that a slution will be found. We still have some time as serial production is still far away.

There are no such risks. GoI is financing the entire development cost. CCS has approved it. IAF gives an advance amount when orders are placed, which is enough for all capex and initial opex (they paid 7000 crores in advance for Tejas mk1a deal). So no one has to invest anything.

Problem again is ADA and HAL. Ex ACM Bhadoria has said this on record that HAL and ADA are not inviting the private players.

 

[Akshat]

Then HAL will start producing consumer goods instead of aircrafts. We should realise that aerospace is not that lucrative for private players.

Do you know the profit margins of HAL? Compare that with the likes of Tata steel or other heavy industries. It’s a gold mine.