Lockheed Martin Bets on F-21 for India's $20 Billion MMRCA Deal, As F-35A Incompatibile to Indian Current Systems

[Anant]

Orders not offered on whether production Line is idle or full , A Fighter jet which meets the parameters will win , Last Time in MMRCA F-18 not even meet paratmeters set By IAF Only Rafale & Eurofighter meet & Rafale was L1 bidder Boeing may b convinced F-18 fall short what Parameters are Thats why they are pitching F-15 Ex Rather than F-18 MMRCA was started way back 2007 From that period F-18,F-16 Eurofighter Rafale MIG-35 Gripen have been contested Even till yoday how many MIG-35 have been produced by your childish theory MIG-35 should not part of MRFA

Right, I am going to say this once more. I am not acting like a F-18 salesman. Back in MMRCA, the F-15 was not offered as it was not green-lit for sale to India. The F-18 was eliminated in the first round, but was offered again under MRFA, which shows that its elimination did not affect anything. The F-15EX was also offered as the same was green-lit. No aircraft manufacturer can offer anything for export unless it is green-lit by the government.

Now, to the second point: I am always dead-set against the MiG-35, as it is merely a rebranded MiG-29K. Heck, the F-21 atleast is supposed to have some upgrades over the F-16V, which is more than what can be said for the MiG-35. Even in case of the Su-35, I have maintained that if that aircraft were to win, it would simply be easier to build more Super Su-30MKIs with new engines.

Finally, when did I say anything about the MiG-35? My point is simple: A production line will go on for as long as there are orders, and companies will not like to keep idle production lines without orders. When it comes to the MiG-35, the Russians simply decided not to go for such an obsolescent aircraft, which is also why it has seen precisely zero export sales and a production run in the single digits. The line for that aircraft has been kept going because Mikoyan really doesn't have any other products. They can either keep that line open without production (essentially throwing money down the drain) in the hopes of sales, or they can simply shut it down and wrap up the company along with it.

The fact that you are continuing to misinterpret comments to this extent suggests that it is, in fact, you, who is being childish.

 

[sumeet biswas]

We should scrap MRFA program and focus on tejas mk2 even if gets delayed.
25 billion dollars is a huge amount in this amount we can buy at least 300 tejas mk2 which will be far better than this old outdated f-16. Tejas will be able to take 8 BVR missiles, radar is more powerful with GaN based TR modules.
If we are so eager to spend money and give it to foreign nation then we should spend it on our engine program with a foreign partner

 

[PKPRS]

Right, I am going to say this once more. I am not acting like a F-18 salesman. Back in MMRCA, the F-15 was not offered as it was not green-lit for sale to India. The F-18 was eliminated in the first round, but was offered again under MRFA, which shows that its elimination did not affect anything. The F-15EX was also offered as the same was green-lit. No aircraft manufacturer can offer anything for export unless it is green-lit by the government.

Every fighter jet other than Gripen-E are upgrades of previous Contestants, F15 and SU-35 didn’t contest last time in MRCA, so among the three that never contested Gripen-E is the brand new platform, there are more chances for Gripen-E because of the engine commonality factor.

 

[Anant]

We should scrap MRFA program and focus on tejas mk2 even if gets delayed.
25 billion dollars is a huge amount in this amount we can buy at least 300 tejas mk2 which will be far better than this old outdated f-16. Tejas will be able to take 8 BVR missiles, radar is more powerful with GaN based TR modules.
If we are so eager to spend money and give it to foreign nation then we should spend it on our engine program with a foreign partner

You do realise that fighters don't just pop out of thin air, right? To increase production rates, you need hundreds of suppliers to scale up. That is not something that can be done quickly or on the cheap.

Sure, you can get 200+ Tejas Mk 2s (approximately) for the price of MRFA as a whole, but the problem will be building those. At the present time, our indigenous suppliers cannot scale up fast enough, which means that you'll simply introduce a lot of supply bottlenecks by going down this route.

 

[Anant]

Every fighter jet other than Gripen-E are upgrades of previous Contestants, F15 and SU-35 didn’t contest last time in MRCA, so among the three that never contested Gripen-E is the brand new platform, there are more chances for Gripen-E because of the engine commonality factor.

Perhaps. I will maintain my old stance, however. MRFA is a quantitative necessity, and the aircraft most suited for the IAF should win. Oh, and toss out the geriatric MiG-35.

 

[PKPRS]

F16 Blk72 is 10 times more potent and still deadlier than Tejas MK1A jets....

F21 is nothing but F16 Block 72 with a powerful computer and a powerful F110-GE-132 engine that produce adry thrust of 84.5 KN and 144.6 KN with After Burner, it also share few conponents from F35.

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Every fighter jet other than Gripen-E are upgrades of previous Contestants, F15 and SU-35 didn’t contest last time in MRCA, so among the three that never contested Gripen-E is the brand new platform, there are more chances for Gripen-E because of the engine commonality factor.

Brazil is unhappy with GripenE's and gone for Rafales now...

 

[kurtwallis wallis]

Orders not offered on whether production Line is idle or full , A Fighter jet which meets the parameters will win , Last Time in MMRCA F-18 not even meet paratmeters set By IAF Only Rafale & Eurofighter meet & Rafale was L1 bidder Boeing may b convinced F-18 fall short what Parameters are Thats why they are pitching F-15 Ex Rather than F-18 MMRCA was started way back 2007 From that period F-18,F-16 Eurofighter Rafale MIG-35 Gripen have been contested Even till yoday how many MIG-35 have been produced by your childish theory MIG-35 should not part of MRFA

F18 having maximum G loading of +7.5 G only! F16 is upto +9.5 G's and Tejas is +8 G's now...

 

[amerjit johal]

USAF have a massive promotion / show off budget.
F35 has been shown off at air shows in many countries.
Doesn't mean that country is going to buy or America is offering to sell to that country.

 

[PKPRS]

Perhaps. I will maintain my old stance, however. MRFA is a quantitative necessity, and the aircraft most suited for the IAF should win. Oh, and toss out the geriatric MiG-35.

We never know, IAF likes MIG-29, they might experiment something like SU-30MKI that has components from Russia, French and Israel, to add to that now we have a list of locally made Indian components as well, so they might buy bare bones MIG-35 add components from all over the world, it’s lot of hassle, but we never know.

 

[PKPRS]

Brazil is unhappy with GripenE's and gone for Rafales now...

I don’t think so, why would they buy Rafale when they are buying and making 36 more Gripen-E’s locally.

 

[sanket]

Now, to the second point: I am always dead-set against the MiG-35, as it is merely a rebranded MiG-29K. Heck, the F-21 atleast is supposed to have some upgrades over the F-16V, which is more than what can be said for the MiG-35. Even in case of the Su-35, I have maintained that if that aircraft were to win, it would simply be easier to build more Super Su-30MKIs with new engines.

MIG-35 Prduction Line is idle & Most important Thing of MRFA circus criteria is who ever wins have to start production line in Bharat with complete Eco-system so your Logic is wrong, Bharat wants Fighter from Locally Built Components have to b source from Locally .F-18 whether Line is closed or on Nothing to do with that Bharat wants a fighter selected under MRFA should b Exported too Not Just for IAF needs .winner will Get 3 to 4 years Time to set up Local Production Line with Eco-system Around Built so dont worry Fighter jets under MRFA are not going to b imported so there is no impact of whether Production Line is running or idle

 

[PKPRS]

Ha Ha Ha oh Then why Contender of MRFA like Euro-Fighter ,Su-35 are Bidding ,again after going production Line idle for Su-30 too Bharat is ordering additional Su-30 MKI Nice Logic from U

SU-35 didn’t participate in MRCA 1.0, only Rafale, Typhoon, F-16C/D, F/A-18E/F, JAS 39 Gripen, and MiG-35 did.

 

[sanket]

SU-35 didn’t participate in MRCA 1.0, only Rafale, Typhoon, F-16C/D, F/A-18E/F, JAS 39 Gripen, and MiG-35 did.

My point is Under MRFA Bharat want Fighter jet to b produced Locally with Eco-system built around & with Local vendor participation , his Logic is due to production Line going to b idle thats why F-18 is not contesting , Bharat is not Going to import any Fighter jet Under MRFA winner will get 3 to 4 years Time to start production Line with cmplete Eco-system built

 

[PKPRS]

My point is Under MRFA Bharat want Fighter jet to b produced Locally with Eco-system built around & with Local vendor participation , his Logic is due to production Line going to b idle thats why F-18 is not contesting , Bharat is not Going to import any Fighter jet Under MRFA winner will get 3 to 4 years Time to start production Line with cmplete Eco-system built

For local eco system LM is the best bet especially if they work with TATA, LM is also making a new variant of F35 for a unknown foreign customer, Dassault doesn't want to work with any Indian entity and do it themself which is a huge problem, SAAB is ready to work with HAL and shares the same GE F414 engine that will be locally made in India, here the scary part is HAL, wish they work with both HAL and some private partners like L&T or Mahindra or Ashok Leyland to make them in multiple production lines. F/A-18 is out of question and so does F15 and SU-35 because of Super Sukhoi program, MIG-35 doesn’t have a chance, EF-Typhoon has a outside chance if they transfer the production line to India, in my opinion both Gripen-E and F21 have greater chances, if not, MRFA will be dragged for few more years, and they will end up going for FGFA when the condition with Russia becomes ideal.

 

[Anant]

We never know, IAF likes MIG-29, they might experiment something like SU-30MKI that has components from Russia, French and Israel, to add to that now we have a list of locally made Indian components as well, so they might buy bare bones MIG-35 add components from all over the world, it’s lot of hassle, but we never know.

I have a partial disagreement with you on that matter. The MiG-35 still has many of the drawbacks of the MiG-29, and the RD-33MK engines have been proven to be less than ideal in service. Moreover, it is still a design from the mid-1970s, and unlike other designs from that period, has seen very little upgrading.

Sure, in theory, one can buy a barebones MiG-35 and fit in other subsystems, buy it'd still be a Tier 2 fighter counterpart to the Su-30MKI, and as such, would almost certainly be a very bad deal in the long run.

The MiG-29 is a pretty good aircraft, but it is a pretty good aircraft for up until a few years back. Today, it's decent. A decade and a half or so from now, it will be obsolete. MRFA jets will be serving till 2070 or so at the least, so the MiG-29 would be a fossil by then.

 

[Anant]

MIG-35 Prduction Line is idle & Most important Thing of MRFA circus criteria is who ever wins have to start production line in Bharat with complete Eco-system so your Logic is wrong, Bharat wants Fighter from Locally Built Components have to b source from Locally .F-18 whether Line is closed or on Nothing to do with that Bharat wants a fighter selected under MRFA should b Exported too Not Just for IAF needs .winner will Get 3 to 4 years Time to set up Local Production Line with Eco-system Around Built so dont worry Fighter jets under MRFA are not going to b imported so there is no impact of whether Production Line is running or idle

I know the MRFA jet is supposed to be built in India with a bunch of locally-sourced components, and should have 100% ToT (though that seems somewhat unlikely).

That said, exports of jets built in India will be a hard sell considering that no nation would like to simply outsource something like this. However, there may be some limited exports

Anyways, even if some muppet decided to select the MiG-35, Russia would be asked to move that line to India. The fact that they have an idle line there means Russia would push for production in Russia, but would still want to get the deal.

With that said, foreign production lines will impact production lines in India. The simple reason for this is that there would still be parts that would be imported, and a production line running in the OEM nation would impact that supply. At the same time, a dead production line (as is the MiG-35's case) would also impact a production line in India since those suppliers would also be sitting idle, and eventually would move on to other things.

 

[Joyel Don]

Absolutely and we have our own jewel in the crown AMCA which is better that F35. AMCA is a 5.5gen fighter made of today's tech whereas F35 was first flown in 2006.

wait wait wait . By the time we make our 5.5 gen AMCA they will start to produce new 6th gen fighters our programs are so late and put on delayed by far now its delayed almost few years . And we can understand our situation on Tejas its program started plus 40 years ago and we still have 36 of them and we are going on 5.5 gen aircraft which i'm sure will be not on production for a few decades. Its better we buy su 57s instead rather than buying from US or making by our self .We first had a deal to buy 114 su 57s i think then we rejected which is a big loss for iaf. We are fighting against a country which is aiming more than 1000 5th gen aircraft by 2030. And the other thing is if pakistan buys it i know they dont have that much money but still our su 30 mkis ,tejas, dassault rafale will never stand a chance against it and the next thing a war could break out any time now, against pakistan or china. Maybe a few years later also which will be way worse . Bharat surely will get affected from it even if we dont stand with any one . Our navy is weak which is the most integral part of india cause we have a very very long coast line . A war against pakistan is just like shooting goal into where there is no goal keeper but if china stand with it its bad . Really bad. Not being childish if i were to buy i would put the money Bharat puts money on agneveer scheme and amca program on buying new equipment from other countries .

 

[Konodioda]

My 2 problems with this chain of thought.

1. Russia doesn’t want to transfer us any fifth gen tech. They don’t want to transfer us any major tech at all, in fact. Remember FGFA? Mid way after investing 100s of millions, Russia increased the price, decreased their own orders and investments, and reduced HAL’s work share. So they are not at all ready to give us anything. Even for something like KA226, they have refused to transfer us even 35% of the tech. So forget fifth gen tech.

2. Assuming Russia does wanna transfer such tech, they should have it in the first place. IAF ditched the program after investing 100s of millions. Russian airforce itself cut down 70% of its own orders and went with more Su35 indeed. China was offered Su57 but they refused it, unofficially saying that their own planes are far ahead. No one so far has shown any interest in Su75 either. So it’s clear that anyone who has seen Russian fifth gen tech finds it inferior to even western fourth gen tech.

Ok, let me explain why it is said that only Russia is the source country of India's fifth generation fighter jet technology.
The reason why Russia does not transfer fifth generation aircraft technology to India is because this technology is the most advanced for Russia, and no country is willing to transfer its most advanced technology to other countries.
When the United States successfully developed the F-22, Japan prepared to purchase it, but the US legislation refused to export the F-22 and instead exported the slightly inferior F-35. This is because in the 1970s, the United States sold Iran its most advanced F-14, and later regretted it, even destroying all retired F-14s to prevent Iranians from buying F-14 parts on the black market. Now the United States only allows its allies to purchase F-35 instead of selling technology.
When Pakistan purchased the J-20 from China, China politely refused and instead sold the J-31/35 with lower performance. Similarly, China did not transfer technology to Pakistan.
Nowadays, Russia, like the United States, hopes that India will purchase finished products or assemble them in India. India hopes to acquire all the technology, which is obviously impossible. Only when the Russians have developed better technology can they possibly transfer the existing technology to India, which takes time.
For the United States, even though the F-16 and F-15 are no longer as advanced, the radar, electronic systems, engines, and other technologies used in these aircraft are not sold to the outside world. For example, the engine used in the KF-21 from South Korea is the F-414, not the more advanced F110 series, and South Korea only uses it without transferring production technology. If India applies to the United States for more advanced engine technology, they will only say two words, it's impossible, and pay more money.

 

[sanket]

I know the MRFA jet is supposed to be built in India with a bunch of locally-sourced components, and should have 100% ToT (though that seems somewhat unlikely).

That said, exports of jets built in India will be a hard sell considering that no nation would like to simply outsource something like this. However, there may be some limited exports

Anyways, even if some muppet decided to select the MiG-35, Russia would be asked to move that line to India. The fact that they have an idle line there means Russia would push for production in Russia, but would still want to get the deal.

With that said, foreign production lines will impact production lines in India. The simple reason for this is that there would still be parts that would be imported, and a production line running in the OEM nation would impact that supply. At the same time, a dead production line (as is the MiG-35's case) would also impact a production line in India since those suppliers would also be sitting idle, and eventually would move on to other things.

Your Logic F-18 production Line going idle is childish its short comings for F-18 thats why boeing is pitching F-15Ex thats why it may have been withdrawn under MRFA Fighter jet will b produce Locally