With Its 2100K Turbine Temperature, How India's 120kN AMCA Engine Poised to Leapfrog Chinese WS-15 Engines on J-20

In a major step toward military aviation self-reliance, India has solidified a partnership with French aerospace leader Safran to co-develop a next-generation fighter jet engine.

This collaboration with India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) aims to produce a powerful 120 kilonewton (kN) thrust engine destined for the future Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Mk2 and the naval Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF).

The new engine's specifications signal a monumental leap in India's technological capabilities. At its core is a planned Turbine Entry Temperature (TET) of 2100 Kelvin (K), a critical performance benchmark that places it in the elite category of the world's most advanced powerplants.

This high-temperature operation is key to achieving greater thrust and fuel efficiency, potentially allowing India to surpass decades of Chinese progress in jet engine technology, particularly when compared to the WS-15 engine designed for China's J-20 stealth fighter.

A higher Turbine Entry Temperature directly translates to superior engine performance. The 2100K target puts the Indo-French engine on par with the powerplants of top-tier Western fighters, such as the Pratt & Whitney F135 used in the American F-35.

This marks a significant breakthrough for India, whose previous indigenous effort, the Kaveri engine, was unable to achieve the required thrust for modern combat aircraft due to challenges in mastering high-temperature material sciences.

The partnership with Safran provides India with crucial access to their expertise in single-crystal turbine blades, ceramic matrix composites, and advanced cooling technologies that are essential for operating an engine at such extreme temperatures.

China's aerospace industry, despite considerable investment and progress, has historically faced difficulties in developing jet engines that match the performance and reliability of their Western or Russian counterparts.

Its premier engine, the Shenyang WS-15, which is intended for the J-20 fighter, is estimated to have a TET of around 1800-1900K. This is substantially lower than the 2100K goal for the new AMCA engine, indicating a persistent gap in material durability and thermal efficiency.

Many operational J-20s are still believed to be flying with the older and less powerful WS-10C engine, which has a TET of approximately 1700-1800K and requires more frequent maintenance.

The development path chosen by India also provides a strategic advantage. While China has spent decades on an iterative process, often relying on reverse-engineering foreign designs, India's collaboration with Safran is set to include a full Transfer of Technology (ToT).

This approach allows India's defence industry to bypass years of trial-and-error and absorb proven, cutting-edge technology directly. The timeline reflects this advantage, with engine testing projected to begin by 2028 and production slated for the early 2030s, aligning perfectly with the planned induction of the AMCA Mk2.

The implications of this project extend beyond a single aircraft. By mastering the complex technology behind advanced aero-engines, India is building a robust industrial ecosystem for future development.

This new engine could be a stepping stone for creating even more powerful systems required for sixth-generation fighters, which may include features like directed energy weapons.

This collaboration not only strengthens India's immediate military capabilities but also positions the nation as a formidable player in the global aerospace and defence sector for decades to come.

 

India to Hold Complete IPR for Its Domestically Developed 120kN Jet Engine in Collaboration with Safran

Agencies warn of ISI-driven push as BKI adopts new strategy in Punjab

[Snowstrike]

Well, im sorry to break it to you, but Safran's offer is still.. unimpressive. And thats being generous. Safran is offering india a scaled up M88 core (4th gen) without any VCE abilities. Whats VCE? Variable Cycle Engine. Hallmark of the 6th generation of fighter engines. At the same time, Safran is pursuing a clean-sheet 6th gen with VCE for their own FCAS program. As of now, RR seems committed to attempting to still carve their way into the joint development with india- although weakened. They are offering a clean-sheet 6th gen engine, and crucially, WITH VCE.

 

[Snowstrike]

Im going to go into more detail on this. I noticed some fundamental flaws with the enthusiasm of this post- the F135 is a 5th-gen engine, developed for the f-35 Lighting II. India, on the other hand, is looking for something more advanced- a 6th generation engine. What does this new frontier or jet engines entail? Some of its hallmarks is VCE technology. It allows the engine to physically alter its bypass ratio, from a low-bypass turbofan to a high-bypass turbofan. This is critical in efficient usage of fuel and power- the engine can optimize range, fuel consumption, and loitering capability. It generally offers ~30% greater range, along with ~20% better fuel consumption. They will also be able to produce much higher electric power, allowing it to complete energy-heavy tasks, like commanding drone swarms, and utilizing Directed Energy Weapons (DEW). Safran's offer is firmly in the 5th, or '5.5' gen of engines. While featuring advanced 5th gen techniques, its fundamental architecture- its core, is a 4th-gen derivative. On the other hand, Rolls-Royce (RR) is offering a clean-sheet 6th generation engine, which entails all of the features I mentioned- while featuring VCE technology aswell. It would provide a generational leap for India, and firmly place it among the top nations which produce these highly complex military engines, with the likes of the United States, China, Russia, France, Japan, and the UK. The only downside to the RR offer is this: a ~3 year longer development timeline. Its set to be ready by 2038- 3 years after the induction of the AMCA mk 2 is planned, in 2035. Safran's offer aligns perfectly with the AMCA. However, a major trade-off for Safran's punctuality, is its long term relevancy. There are valid concerns that the engine produced, if Safran is chosen, will be showing its age within the decade. While the other top nations race ahead towards the 6th generation, India choosing to remain behind would be a disastrous one. Here's my opinion on this: I personally believe India should choose RR. Despite the 3-year longer wait, it would provide a much longer relevancy period than a 4th-gen core. In the end, its up to the MoD to weigh the pros and cons of both offers, and come to a decision.

 

[P2S2]

Im going to go into more detail on this. I noticed some fundamental flaws with the enthusiasm of this post- the F135 is a 5th-gen engine, developed for the f-35 Lighting II. India, on the other hand, is looking for something more advanced- a 6th generation engine. What does this new frontier or jet engines entail? Some of its hallmarks is VCE technology. It allows the engine to physically alter its bypass ratio, from a low-bypass turbofan to a high-bypass turbofan. This is critical in efficient usage of fuel and power- the engine can optimize range, fuel consumption, and loitering capability. It generally offers ~30% greater range, along with ~20% better fuel consumption. They will also be able to produce much higher electric power, allowing it to complete energy-heavy tasks, like commanding drone swarms, and utilizing Directed Energy Weapons (DEW). Safran's offer is firmly in the 5th, or '5.5' gen of engines. While featuring advanced 5th gen techniques, its fundamental architecture- its core, is a 4th-gen derivative. On the other hand, Rolls-Royce (RR) is offering a clean-sheet 6th generation engine, which entails all of the features I mentioned- while featuring VCE technology aswell. It would provide a generational leap for India, and firmly place it among the top nations which produce these highly complex military engines, with the likes of the United States, China, Russia, France, Japan, and the UK. The only downside to the RR offer is this: a ~3 year longer development timeline. Its set to be ready by 2038- 3 years after the induction of the AMCA mk 2 is planned, in 2035. Safran's offer aligns perfectly with the AMCA. However, a major trade-off for Safran's punctuality, is its long term relevancy. There are valid concerns that the engine produced, if Safran is chosen, will be showing its age within the decade. While the other top nations race ahead towards the 6th generation, India choosing to remain behind would be a disastrous one. Here's my opinion on this: I personally believe India should choose RR. Despite the 3-year longer wait, it would provide a much longer relevancy period than a 4th-gen core. In the end, its up to the MoD to weigh the pros and cons of both offers, and come to a decision.

Thanks. I would second your thinking. We also need to walk before we sprint so let's us earn more dough for MoD to be able to get both.

 

[Snowstrike]

Thanks. I would second your thinking. We also need to walk before we sprint so let's us earn more dough for MoD to be able to get both.

Thank you! I'm glad to have a like-minded peer present. I agree, in an ideal situation, India would be able to fund both RR and Safran, creating an air of competitiveness. Unfortunately, our current budget does not account for that, hence why I chose RR as my preferred choice.

 

[crzyred48]

Thank you! I'm glad to have a like-minded peer present. I agree, in an ideal situation, India would be able to fund both RR and Safran, creating an air of competitiveness. Unfortunately, our current budget does not account for that, hence why I chose RR as my preferred choice.

I've heard people's concerns about rr being too closely associated with the US and being easily influenced by them. This can be an issue in the future given how the india-us tirs are deteriorating due to the trade war. What would be your response to that ? Im genuinely curious and willing to learn more about this deal

 

[P2S2]

Thank you! I'm glad to have a like-minded peer present. I agree, in an ideal situation, India would be able to fund both RR and Safran, creating an air of competitiveness. Unfortunately, our current budget does not account for that, hence why I chose RR as my preferred choice.

The Kohinoor rules England. The gypsies who evacuated across the Himalayan mountains managed to reach Scotland and become Royalty. They managed to sail around Africa and unite India. Yes we own England and have sacrificed our lives to protect it's interests. England would ditch imperialism to stand with its children. Hopefully they will stop loosing the Indian science and technologies that they have mastered. The uncorroding pillar stands proudly in India. The anti gravitational exhibit from Bengal was dismantled, never to be reassembled possibly till now. Now lets create a Desi Bid coin and run through false pretenses and forgeries. Yes we can easily generate infinity.

 

[Muthu.Kumar]

"monumental leap in India's technological capabilities" ???

Seriously ? India doesn't have its own technology and hence buys it for a price of over INR 60,000 crores.

You can only say "India tries to advance its technological capabilities with the help of France"

 

[Snowstrike]

"monumental leap in India's technological capabilities" ???

Seriously ? India doesn't have its own technology and hence buys it for a price of over INR 60,000 crores.

You can only say "India tries to advance its technological capabilities with the help of France"

Your not wrong. India tried to get its own fighter engines, beginning with the Kaveri in 1986. However, several factors like funding and lack of political will made progress incredibly hard, ending in the cancellation of the project. Years later, in 2016, there was an effort to revive it with Safran, but after realizing it was just another French fleecing move, they cancelled it. It now is slated to power the Ghatak UCAV. As of now, partnering with a foreign company (preferably RR) would be highly beneficial to developing indigenous capabilities, which we currently do NOT possess.

 

[P2S2]

Another way of saying that : India is able not to steal or capture but be gifted French techniques.

 

[Snowstrike]

I've heard people's concerns about rr being too closely associated with the US and being easily influenced by them. This can be an issue in the future given how the india-us tirs are deteriorating due to the trade war. What would be your response to that ? Im genuinely curious and willing to learn more about this deal

Thank you for your passion regarding this topic! I'm glad to have someone as invested in this subject as I am. First, I'd like to start by saying this- UK-US ties are great. They're very close, and will continue to be close- although London is itself choosing to hedge its bets by pursuing independent programs in all fields (GCAP, missiles, DEWs (Directed Energy Weapons), etc). They are opening up options. As for the AMCA mk2 engine, it will be a joint development project between the UK and INDIA. Not the US. They will not be using any critical components which are sourced from the USA- they will be procured from UK, India, or European partners. (not sure about the specifics, but we can say for sure there will NOT be any US-sourced critical components.) Apart from this, London has its own independent foreign policy- they have gone through with deals despite US opposition. They have already cleared the export of the advanced tech and IP involved in this deal to India. Yes, the US HAS influence in London, and there is the possibility of Uncle Sam going "You might wanna be careful with that engine deal". But this will not define the UK's policies- they'll do it themselves. I find the concerns over US influence in this deal to be skewed and half-baked, if I'm being honest. As always, I hope this was informative!

 

[Foxbat]

Well, im sorry to break it to you, but Safran's offer is still.. unimpressive. And thats being generous. Safran is offering india a scaled up M88 core (4th gen) without any VCE abilities. Whats VCE? Variable Cycle Engine. Hallmark of the 6th generation of fighter engines. At the same time, Safran is pursuing a clean-sheet 6th gen with VCE for their own FCAS program. As of now, RR seems committed to attempting to still carve their way into the joint development with india- although weakened. They are offering a clean-sheet 6th gen engine, and crucially, WITH VCE.

Well, that is how India usually ends up with not so smart decision making. After negotiations with several foreign foreign partners. Indian bureaucrats and GTRE seems to be fondly attached to French connections. They could always have gone for RR or Japanese IHI XF9-1 engine technology but Safran is always their favourite. I am wondering Safran doesn't have an engine which produces 120kN thrust. It's seems to me that they are going to use this project as a basis to produce an engine which will serve as self purpose and at the same time get paid a healthy amount. Killing two birds in one stone. Probably GTRE knows about the French hidden agenda which is why Safran was readily willing to offer full ToT. I hope Safran will keep to their deal and GTRE officials made every details in the deal favourable to AMCA's requirement. Now my main concern is there will be no hiccups and squabbles in the midst of the project just like Su-57 and that will severely hampers the project's progress and disrupt the projected timelines of incorporating the engine to AMCA Mk2.

 

[P2S2]

Well, that is how India usually ends up with not so smart decision making. After negotiations with several foreign foreign partners. Indian bureaucrats and GTRE seems to be fondly attached to French connections. They could always have gone for RR or Japanese IHI XF9-1 engine technology but Safran is always their favourite. I am wondering Safran doesn't have an engine which produces 120kN thrust. It's seems to me that they are going to use this project as a basis to produce an engine which will serve as self purpose and at the same time get paid a healthy amount. Killing two birds in one stone. Probably GTRE knows about the French hidden agenda which is why Safran was readily willing to offer full ToT. I hope Safran will keep to their deal and GTRE officials made every details in the deal favourable to AMCA's requirement. Now my main concern is there will be no hiccups and squabbles in the midst of the project just like Su-57 and that will severely hampers the project's progress and disrupt the projected timelines of incorporating the engine to AMCA Mk2.

The major centers are French German Japanese independent technologies. Britain still remains an empire. US broke loose and became the premier. Russia assisted Germany to recover by desolving their own empire. France needed money to keep going, its colonies moved away, its attempt to use EU funding is still open to questioning. We have assisted them previously and probably now. Russia, China, Korea and India are the key.

 

[Snowstrike]

Well, that is how India usually ends up with not so smart decision making. After negotiations with several foreign foreign partners. Indian bureaucrats and GTRE seems to be fondly attached to French connections. They could always have gone for RR or Japanese IHI XF9-1 engine technology but Safran is always their favourite. I am wondering Safran doesn't have an engine which produces 120kN thrust. It's seems to me that they are going to use this project as a basis to produce an engine which will serve as self purpose and at the same time get paid a healthy amount. Killing two birds in one stone. Probably GTRE knows about the French hidden agenda which is why Safran was readily willing to offer full ToT. I hope Safran will keep to their deal and GTRE officials made every details in the deal favourable to AMCA's requirement. Now my main concern is there will be no hiccups and squabbles in the midst of the project just like Su-57 and that will severely hampers the project's progress and disrupt the projected timelines of incorporating the engine to AMCA Mk2

Exactly! you've hit the heart of it. One of my major problems is the fact that Safran attempted to hold 50% of the IPR for the engine (which this is not even up to their standard, its 4th gen with no vce compared to their own 6th gen with vce for fcas). When it became clear it would be too humiliating for the MoD to accept 50% ipr, they somehow 'discovered' that they could offer 100% IPR after all. I prefer stable partners, who dont change like sand in the tide. This just seems like they're squeezing the most they can get outta India before it fully pivots to indigenous material.

 

[P2S2]

Exactly! you've hit the heart of it. One of my major problems is the fact that Safran attempted to hold 50% of the IPR for the engine (which this is not even up to their standard, its 4th gen with no vce compared to their own 6th gen with vce for fcas). When it became clear it would be too humiliating for the MoD to accept 50% ipr, they somehow 'discovered' that they could offer 100% IPR after all. I prefer stable partners, who dont change like sand in the tide. This just seems like they're squeezing the most they can get outta India before it fully pivots to indigenous material.

A valid point to be hammered to Safran. They have to accept partnerships wholeheartedly to survive in Geopolitics.

 

[P2S2]

Well, that is how India usually ends up with not so smart decision making. After negotiations with several foreign foreign partners. Indian bureaucrats and GTRE seems to be fondly attached to French connections. They could always have gone for RR or Japanese IHI XF9-1 engine technology but Safran is always their favourite. I am wondering Safran doesn't have an engine which produces 120kN thrust. It's seems to me that they are going to use this project as a basis to produce an engine which will serve as self purpose and at the same time get paid a healthy amount. Killing two birds in one stone. Probably GTRE knows about the French hidden agenda which is why Safran was readily willing to offer full ToT. I hope Safran will keep to their deal and GTRE officials made every details in the deal favourable to AMCA's requirement. Now my main concern is there will be no hiccups and squabbles in the midst of the project just like Su-57 and that will severely hampers the project's progress and disrupt the projected timelines of incorporating the engine to AMCA Mk2.

DRDO sab ka baap bangayah.

 

[Snowstrike]

A valid point to be hammered to Safran. They have to accept partnerships wholeheartedly to survive in Geopolitics.

Thank you! And yeah, thats true. Soon enough, they know they'll lose their share. I'm guessing this partnership is their last time fleecing India, since its meant to build indigenous capabilities before going fully indigenous,.

 

[Sun Beam]

Let's wait the fruit and the best results.....

 

[crzyred48]

Thank you for your passion regarding this topic! I'm glad to have someone as invested in this subject as I am. First, I'd like to start by saying this- UK-US ties are great. They're very close, and will continue to be close- although London is itself choosing to hedge its bets by pursuing independent programs in all fields (GCAP, missiles, DEWs (Directed Energy Weapons), etc). They are opening up options. As for the AMCA mk2 engine, it will be a joint development project between the UK and INDIA. Not the US. They will not be using any critical components which are sourced from the USA- they will be procured from UK, India, or European partners. (not sure about the specifics, but we can say for sure there will NOT be any US-sourced critical components.) Apart from this, London has its own independent foreign policy- they have gone through with deals despite US opposition. They have already cleared the export of the advanced tech and IP involved in this deal to India. Yes, the US HAS influence in London, and there is the possibility of Uncle Sam going "You might wanna be careful with that engine deal". But this will not define the UK's policies- they'll do it themselves. I find the concerns over US influence in this deal to be skewed and half-baked, if I'm being honest. As always, I hope this was informative!

"Safran, leveraging its experience with the M88 engine powering the Rafale, has softened its earlier stance of retaining 50% IPR, now offering 100% ToT and full IPR ownership to match Rolls-Royce’s proposal. This shift follows DRDO’s insistence on complete technological autonomy, driven by lessons from the Kaveri engine program, where limited technology sharing with Safran (then Snecma) in 2016-18 restricted India’s ability to independently advance the engine. Safran’s revised offer includes a clean-slate 110-130 kN engine, distinct from the M88, with VCE technology tailored for the AMCA Mk-2 and potentially the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF)."

I found this on the Indian Defense And Research Wing's website. They say that Safran had initially offered VCE technology and a different engine than the M88 before. Was the deal altered in between or did they go back on their word ? or, was it that this was never the deal to begin with ?

 

[patelakhileshchandra]

I suggest, that a fresh look at the matter is the need of the hour...Times have changed a lot since the previous failures in the attempts to develop an indigenous fighter jet engine.
The technological and industrial capabilities of the country have grown manifold and so have the engineering capabilities.

Likely, if a new attempt at made at indigenous jet engine is made, in the present scenario, it is more likely than not, to succeed.

At the same time, I suggest, India should grab both the offers, one from Saffran, and the other from RR, while at the same time, also developing it indigenously...then the time frame and capabilities, both could be managed to our advantage...giving us greater flexibility...and wider range of options.

I would term this strategy as ..."and" strategy instead of an "or" strategy, being espoused by many on the platform.

Of course, it might entail some parallel or overlapping developments, and extra financing, but it might be worthwhile.

 

[Snowstrike]

"Safran, leveraging its experience with the M88 engine powering the Rafale, has softened its earlier stance of retaining 50% IPR, now offering 100% ToT and full IPR ownership to match Rolls-Royce’s proposal. This shift follows DRDO’s insistence on complete technological autonomy, driven by lessons from the Kaveri engine program, where limited technology sharing with Safran (then Snecma) in 2016-18 restricted India’s ability to independently advance the engine. Safran’s revised offer includes a clean-slate 110-130 kN engine, distinct from the M88, with VCE technology tailored for the AMCA Mk-2 and potentially the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF)."

I found this on the Indian Defense And Research Wing's website. They say that Safran had initially offered VCE technology and a different engine than the M88 before. Was the deal altered in between or did they go back on their word ? or, was it that this was never the deal to begin with ?

Haha, IDRW is mostly known as a meme because of the stuff they publish- and as for the Safran thing, no, as of now, they are offering a 4th gen core with no VCE. Neither side has announced any change in plans- it looks like this is how it is gonna be progressing. Only RR has said they will be developing a clean sheet 110kn engine with VCE (thats why their timeline is ~13 years vs Safran's ~10 year timeline). It is highly unlikely that Safran is matching that- and no credible sources have reported on it.

 

[crzyred48]

Haha, IDRW is mostly known as a meme because of the stuff they publish- and as for the Safran thing, no, as of now, they are offering a 4th gen core with no VCE. Neither side has announced any change in plans- it looks like this is how it is gonna be progressing. Only RR has said they will be developing a clean sheet 110kn engine with VCE (thats why their timeline is ~13 years vs Safran's ~10 year timeline). It is highly unlikely that Safran is matching that- and no credible sources have reported on it.

I see. Well ig RR's offer was better after all. But should we not consider the fact that India needs new jets as soon as possible and the AMCA mk2 is the only majorly indigenous jet that would be free of major sanctions and stuff once it's built. Tejas mk2 and AMCA mk1 still depend on GE. So according to me, something is better than nothing. A 3 year gap is quiet high considering the fact that India is surrounded by enemies. I really appreciate your efforts to clarify my doubts, thanks !

 

[Mr. Indian]

May be opting for French support will be an edge in finalising the inter government deal to give us priority for fast delivery and better pricing of anticipated Rafales for which, India is in a hurry to compensate for depleting squadron strength.

 

[P2S2]

May be opting for French support will be an edge in finalising the inter government deal to give us priority for fast delivery and better pricing of anticipated Rafales for which, India is in a hurry to compensate for depleting squadron strength.

We are a major customer. Its a double edged sword. In Geopolitics too French interests need India. Size matters we could continue being reliable and end up stronger.